the Enigma 'thing'

You'll have to forgive my vagueness on this one, but bear with me it's heading somewhere...

what are the problems associated with Enigmas? I've read bits and bobs on other forums but it seems to be greatly glossed over and no actual help

Are you thinking it is similar to stargazing?

I've not a clue, I don't even know the symptoms

The enigma gene carries with it certain neurological issues.
Each enigma has these issues but some show symptoms worse than others. Some show no symptoms at all.
The symptoms include, staring up at nothing for ages ( which is stargazing in the leo world), Bad aim at food, walking in circles, walking wobbly, walking with a tilted head, walking and dragging the tail.
A lot of people cull the hatchlings that come out really bad, but a lot of enigma's nowadays are pretty much like normal gecko's until subdued to to some sort of stressor. E.g. bright lights, picking up, other cagemates etc, and when the gecko becomes more stressed the symptoms get worse.

Hope this helped.

Sounds a lot like Stargazing in corns...

so does this affect ALL enigmas, or just the unlucky ones? And does it make any difference if the enigmas are het or homo?

Well enigma is dominant, so there is no het.
And it is in all enigma's but only noticable in the unlucky one's.
All technically have it, but not all show the signs.
So not all of them walk in circles or stargaze and such. Some are just like normal gecko's. which are the one's that get bred.

though breeding enigma to enigma makes bad babies apparently, like really dodgy ones.
But there's no reason to do enigma x enigma.

i'm glad you asked this question.
I was researching through the internet about enigma syndrome.. and not alot showed up. I think enigma's are beautiful leos but I don't want to get one and risk having to care for a special need leo.. i wouldn't mind if i was more experienced and had more moneys and time obvs.. but im young and don't know enough about leos to care for a leo with problems eating and such

Personally I liken the enigma trait to any other genetic defect that can come from breeding inferior animals. You know the propencity for tragedy is there so why do it? I honestly don't think what it adds to the color morph pool is worth the possibility of hatching deformed babies. In the long run, a person sells an animal that could have enigma 5-6 generations back, you breed it with an enigma today then you've got a whole clutch of possibly enigma positive babies that you're going to have to cull. It's just not worth it. You wouldn't breed a dog that has deafness in hopes that the offspring don't come out deaf... it's a crap shoot in the end. All you can do is enploy good ETHICAL breeding standards toa void this entire problem. It is highly frowned upon breeding an animal with a kinked tail so why should it be any less of an ethics violation breeding enigmas that have just as severe quality of life impacting possibilities?

I suppose a lot of people don't see it as effecting their quality of life.
Its a very two sided debate, which is obviously been going on a while.
And i feel, breeding an enigma leo that seems absolutely fine, and coming out with babies that seem absolutely fine (and beautiful) seems fair.
The enigma's that constantly show bad signs of the syndrome don't get bred by responsible breeders.
The only enigma's that get bred are the one's that DON'T show symptoms and are the same as every other gecko.

The syndrome symptoms pop up when a gecko is stressed, but good breeders avoid anything that make ANY of their gecko's stressed...

Jordan wrote:Well enigma is dominant, so there is no het.
And it is in all enigma's but only noticable in the unlucky one's.
All technically have it, but not all show the signs.
So not all of them walk in circles or stargaze and such. Some are just like normal gecko's. which are the one's that get bred.

though breeding enigma to enigma makes bad babies apparently, like really dodgy ones.
But there's no reason to do enigma x enigma.

"enigma is dominant, so there is no het": yes there is, if at the enigma locus on the chromasome there is one enigma gene and one 'not enigma' (ie normal) gene then its a het. It will still look like an enigma, but still a het.

"breeding enigma to enigma makes bad babies apparently": If these enigmas are het (or one parent is) then doing this breeding increases the chances of homozygous enigmas. This could point to homozygous enigma being at increased risk/increased symptoms.

"But there's no reason to do enigma x enigma": Is the above point reason enough? (any major debate on this is for another thread at another time )

Anyway, enough of the quoting.... Is this 'wobblyness etc' linked only to enigma, or has it been isolated?

It's very interesting to read the background to these morphs, and the debates involved. It would be a real bonus if you can breed out a line of homo enigmas without the defects (and proven for several generations)rather than accepting that enigmas almost always have problems.

Then the responsible breeders would be running parallel with those corn snake breeders who are test breeding sunkissed corn snakes with homo stargazers to prove them clear of the gene. And I hope to be able to prove mine out at some point, just as soon as I can get hold of one for test breeding.

eeji wrote:
"enigma is dominant, so there is no het": yes there is, if at the enigma locus on the chromasome there is one enigma gene and one 'not enigma' (ie normal) gene then its a het. It will still look like an enigma, but still a het.

Well yes technically there is one copy and two copy versions of the gene. But they have been found to be no different from each other.

eeji wrote:
"breeding enigma to enigma makes bad babies apparently": If these enigmas are het (or one parent is) then doing this breeding increases the chances of homozygous enigmas. This could point to homozygous enigma being at increased risk/increased symptoms.

I know what your saying, but when a pairing of het enigma x het enigma is done then your saying that the 25% homo enigma's will display worse signs, However this hasn't been observed, its more that closer to a 100% or clearly more than 25% percent show increased signs. Meaning the hets that come from that pairing are unestablishable from the homo's as they show just as bad symptoms.
Its almost as if (and this is in no way tested or what i believe but just as an example of what im trying to say) the actual 'Symptoms' are polygenic and the colour trait is recessive/dominant.
As breeding to enigma's to enigma's seem to heighten the symptoms and breeding het enigma's to non enigma carriers seems to make gecko's with less symptoms.

eeji wrote:
Anyway, enough of the quoting.... Is this 'wobblyness etc' linked only to enigma, or has it been isolated?

Seems to be only linked to enigma's and hasn't been seperated to any non enigma's.

Jill wrote:It's very interesting to read the background to these morphs, and the debates involved. It would be a real bonus if you can breed out a line of homo enigmas without the defects (and proven for several generations)rather than accepting that enigmas almost always have problems.

This is why it is considered that breeding an Enigma to enigma is pointless, as you can get enigma's (hets) from a pairing with only one enigma and the hatchlings will likely come out with a lot less problems.
Breeding a line of homo enigma's would heighten the defects. and soon as you breed it to a gecko without defect (a non enigma) then, well, you end up with het's with less problems... which look the same and provide the same colour genes as homo enigma's. So really, no need for homo enigma's.

Jordan wrote:I suppose a lot of people don't see it as effecting their quality of life.
Its a very two sided debate, which is obviously been going on a while.
And i feel, breeding an enigma leo that seems absolutely fine, and coming out with babies that seem absolutely fine (and beautiful) seems fair.
The enigma's that constantly show bad signs of the syndrome don't get bred by responsible breeders.
The only enigma's that get bred are the one's that DON'T show symptoms and are the same as every other gecko.

The syndrome symptoms pop up when a gecko is stressed, but good breeders avoid anything that make ANY of their gecko's stressed...


But what happens in the case where the syndrom doesn't show up until that leo is 2-3-4 yearws old? Then you've bred how many leos out of that parent that could/will likely be affected later in life as well. Being a responsible ethical breeder plays TOP ROLL when entering into an enigma breeding program but unfortunately most of the breeders out there aren't ethical or responsible and hardly educated in most instances.

But what happens in the case where the syndrom doesn't show up until that leo is 2-3-4 yearws old? Then you've bred how many leos out of that parent that could/will likely be affected later in life as well. Being a responsible ethical breeder plays TOP ROLL when entering into an enigma breeding program but unfortunately most of the breeders out there aren't ethical or responsible and hardly educated in most instances.

Personally i haven't seen or heard of a case like that, YET, so hopefully that doesn't happen.
So all enigma breeder's are unethical?

The breeding of good enigma's to get more good enigma's is only improving the gene. Something that admittedly should have been done by the original breeder.

Jordan wrote:...
Its almost as if (and this is in no way tested or what i believe but just as an example of what im trying to say) the actual 'Symptoms' are polygenic and the colour trait is recessive/dominant.
As breeding to enigma's to enigma's seem to heighten the symptoms and breeding het enigma's to non enigma carriers seems to make gecko's with less symptoms.

...

and soon as you breed it to a gecko without defect (a non enigma) then, well, you end up with het's with less problems...

maybe one day it can be 'bred out' of the morph if enough outcrossing is done

i look forward to it

I said MOST breeders tend to be unethical.

i had an in depth discussion with craig stewart about the enigma syndrome. i was very concearned as two of my animals i got from him were enigmas. i had this talk before i got my group, because my red stripe enigma is a six hundred dollar investment, and i was NOT going to spend that much money on a chace of any health issues. this is what i took from the conversation; the enigma syndrome does still exist in some enigmas, however with the outcrossing he has done, HIS animals have all but ceased showing signs of any neurological issues...he does have some that do, but he will NOT sell, or breed these animals. an enigma that shows NO signs of this trait USUALLY do not have babies that show many, if any signs of this issue. if an enigma is going to have the symptoms, it will, in most cases, show up immediately...not down the road in some years. by outcrossing bloodlines this is less common now than ever before...that being said, it DOES still exist, but there are more and more enigmas with absolutely no signs of this disorder. this shows up more in pure enigmas and less in outcrossed morphs. there is always an exception, but this problem is slowely getting figured out and corrected. the same as with the motley boas, when they were first being offered, most of them died and would not breed successfully, now look at em, you hardly ever see one with ANY issues...it is almost non existant to see a motley with any problems at all. i personally believe this is what will happen with the enigma leopard geckos, and that is why i ended up getting the two enigmas i now own. neither of mine show ANY SIGNS of any sorts of issues. they both eat very well, digest and crap well, move very well, and seem very happy to me. i DO plan on breeding mine and i dont see an issue with doing so. i will meticulously check ALL of my offspring and will not sell any if the signs are there. i think the enigma lines will be outcrossed and eventually there will be ALMOST no issues with these wonderful morph leos! i may be wrong, but after doing this for over 24 years i have seen neurological issues in many morphs outcrossed to the point of very healthy stock and almost no issues...eg. jaguar carpets, motley boas, super jungle boas, and if im not mistaken i think even the first few pied balls were having issues(i know it was a very popular morph, that now has almost no issues)...but we also still see spider balls with neuro issues, but still less than we did before. i think if breeders will step up and work hard to outcross their bloodlines, this issue will some day be almost non existant, i am very confident in this! and so are some people i HIGHLY RESPECT and would take their word as "gospel"...so i think it is only a matter of time like the rest of the issues we used to see in morphs. i am not at all concearned for the future of this morph! and as a side note, i would NEVER breed an enigma that showed signs of this disorder.