Help! bendy wrists and skinny tail

Hi
I've had my leo Rio since September last year. She's always been a fussy eater, often going over a week without eating. I feed her mainly meal worms, and have fed her locusts and the odd wax worm in the past. I generally stick to the meal worms because I breed them, and I find that I cant keep the locusts alive long enough and they can become very expensive.
I try not to handle her too much, and have also taken to not putting the light on in her cage on brighter days as I've read that the light in the viv can stress them out.
I've had her out today and I've noticed that her wrists are quite bent to the side, and she doesn't seem to grip with her fingers. She also has a fairly skinny tail. she hasn't been eating much over th last couple of weeks.
I'm worried she has metabolic bone disease. What should I do? Should I take her to a vet? can a vet even do anything i can't??
I'm really worried. Please help.

Hi there and welcome to the forum.
If you fill out this small health questionnaire, by copying it into your post along with your answers, it will help the membership give you better and more accurate answers.


It does sound likke MBD, and it would mean having a look at your supplementing routine to make sure your leo is getting enough calcium.
If you fill in the questionnaire though, everyone will be able to help you out much better.

Also to add a bit onto what jordan suggested, and without the qestionaire yet, it could be an absorbtion issue as well. Possible parasite infection would cause absorbtion isssues (of nutrients like protein and fats) including vitimins. Absorbtion issues would affect flesh tone as well as metibotically.

Straight off, if it were me, I would get liquid calcium suppliment and start following the dosing recommendations on the bottle. Next you need something like reptaide to stimulate appetite and give the system a boost with electrolites and such. Again follow the dosing recommendations on the bottle. At the very least we can start getting him on the right track if/until he sees a vet (if it gets that far).

See if you can get a stool sample to have a vet check for parasites. I think that needs to be eliminated first... the mbd won't kill the leo, the parasites could. Mbd is not cureable but it is "repairable" to a degree. Your leo may always have malformed legs but they will, and should, stay firm with proper recovery treatment and follow up life long specialized supplimentation regemin. If you could post a picture or 2 when you fill out te questionaire that would be very helpful. Sorry you're having such troubles but I'm pretty confident we can get you in the rght direction.

Welcome to the forum

Hi and welcome to the forum. They have pretty much covered it all I just wish you all the best and if you get the questionnaire filled out we can always go from there if you need more help.

is there supposed to be a link to the questionnaire on your post Jordan? or can I find is somewhere on the site?

Welcome to the forum!
I don't know much about leopard gecko illnesses so I don't think I would be much help lol
But I hope your little leo is okay, and recovers soon

The questionnaire:
http://www.leopardgeckoforum.com/t134-please-read-and-fill-out-with-your-health-questions

Just copy and paste it over here and fill it out It will make it easier for everyone to find out what's wrong with your leopard gecko, and what may be causing the problems.

About your leo:
- Sex - Female
- Age & Weight - 10 months & ? pretty little still. I'll include a photo
- Morph (if you know) - something cool
- How long have you owned your leo - 9 months
- Where was he/she obtained (Pet store, breeder, wild caught, etc.) - breeder
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred - captive
A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo - 1 to 3 times a week. (though maybe only twice the month before because she didn't seem spritely and i didn't want to annoy her)
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how - I have noticed lethargy, and dull colour over the last few weeks, and today when I had her out I notised that her wrists bend to the side, she's not gripping with her fingers, and she's really skinny, including her tail.
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. - just not eating well/regulaly
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal - no
- When was the last time he/she went - in the last week
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem/issue you are experiencing and how long it has been going on
I have noticed lethargy, and dull colour over the last couple of months, and today when I had her out I notised that her wrists bend to the side, she's not gripping with her fingers, and she's really skinny, including her tail.
She's always been difficult to get to eat anything. And has eaten little over the last couple of weeks.

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size - 2ft x 1.5ft
- Type (ex. glass tank, screen enclosure, tub kept) - vivarium - malamine on three sides, glass front
- Type of substrate (sand, vinyl tiles, ceramic/stone tiles, etc.) - kitchen roll
- Hides (how many, location and type (hothide, humid hide, regular hide etc.)
B) Heating - fake rock hide on 'hot' side, half log hide on 'cold' side, humid hide (plastic container containing moistened kitchen roll, with hole cut into lid for entry kind of in between the 'sides'.
- What is your main heat source (heat bulbs, under tank heat mat etc) **Please include the brand and size of your UTH if you use one** - Under heat mat with digital thermostat. - What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side) - 29-31 C Hot, 20-22 cold
- Method of regulating your heat source (thermostat, rheostat, light dimmer etc.)
- What are you using to measure your temps (probe thermometer, infrared lazer tempo gun, stick on temp gauge, etc) - stick on temp gauge
- Do you have any lights (describe type and cycle duration) - there is a normal low wattage bulb during the day (usually 7am - 7pm).

C) Cage mates - NA
- How many (males, females)
- Describe health, or previous problems of cage mates
Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding - meal worms. have also tried locusts and occaisional wax worm
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding? i have meal worms in the dish at all times. usually about 8 so i can count how many she's eaten. she's maybe eaten 2 in the last week and a half? I was no holiday, and my bf was looking after her so I can't be sure.
- How are you feeding (hand fed, tongs/tweezers, left in dish, ect) - left in dish. I placed one next to her yesterday and she ate it.
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using (please include brand) - nutrobal
- What multi vitimin are you using (please include brand) - nutrobal
-How are you implimenting your suppliment program (how often do you dust with each suppliment, do you leave calcium in the tank 24/7 etc.) - I dust the worms every second time or so. Yesterday I left some in a little lid so she can get at it if she wants, and i put some on her face to lick off. Is it bad to leave it in there? or should i find some other calcium stuff to leave in there?
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with. -Mealworms have wheat bran substrate and bug grub, and carrots usually. When I have locusts I use lettuce or spinich. they tend to leave carrots alone.

I would say that this little one does have MBD. This is when the bones get soft and you can see where the "arms" and "legs" are looking a little almost mushy. I have dealt only a little with MBD so I am actually going to get our moderator on here Sam to take a look because she has many leos that she has saved and nursed back to health and many have had sever MBD. I will send her a message and have no doubt she can give you some great advice!

i agree with jolene. one other thing i see as a possible issue is your thermometer. if you have a stick on, it will only tell you the air temp where it is, not on the hotspot on the floor, ect. i would reccomend you getting an infra red temp gun. you can get them from 25 bucks and up. i used to use the more expensive ones and now use the 50 dollar pe2 from pro exotics and i love it! you can know your hot spot, cool spot, hide temps, and even the temp of your animals! plus you only need one for any number of animals and enclosures! if you dont want to go this route, you can always get the digital ones with a probe attached. i personally have found the tempguns the most convenient and accurate however. mbd IS reversable as long as you catch it and treat it soon enough. give extra calcium and vits, and i have even heard some people giving pedialite and feeding high calcium/protien foods via feeding tubes. good luck and keep us informed how your little leo is doing! we will do all we can to help. the temps are not what caused the mbd though, just so you dont think i am saying that this is the cause, i just think a different way of checking temps is gonna be more accurate.

It's very much decidedly MDB. As for a skinny tail, I personally don't see it. It seems like your leo is still a growing girl and all the food she's taking is going to growth. As far as MDB is concerned, I believe that fix is calcium and if you arent already, you should start dusting your leo's food in pure calcium powder.

Upon reading your questionnaire, I believe that it could be due to the fact that your "multivitamin" isn't containing enough calcium. I could be wrong. I personally use both a multivitamin and then a dash of extra pure calcium when I dust my food. My multivitamin is roughly 25% calcium, but I use the extra pure like I stated.

kodie, you are correct in the fact that the calcium is what the leo needs to reverse the mbd, but the pedialite helps in animals that are dehydrated and has been known to increase appetite. the vitamin suggestion is because the leo more than likely needs vits also, as they will actually help the body process the calcium. so a combination is what i would do if it were my animal. but the lack of calcium is what causes metobolic bone desease.

Yeah, thats why I suggested picking up some pure calcium to help "potent-up" the already in use multivitamin.

that is fo~sho a good idea!

The other treatment, which is not recommended is for one hour every couple days putting them under some UVB lighting. Sam has the exact wattage that should be used but that is how I stopped the one I have from getting worse. It hardens up their bones again. The other thing that I did is for a little while I got liquid calcium that could be added to the water to make sure that he was getting it whether he ate it himself or not. You should have a dish of pure calcium in his tank at all times.

I believe you get, in florescent length, a 5.0 tropical bulb. I have a 10.0 for my Anoles, but they bask in it all day so they need it.

Hiya,
im currently caring for 3leo's with MBD, 2i took in like it and a baby i hatched last year and the best way I have found to harden the bones is syringing Zolcal-d (liquid calcium) into them everyday for a mouth while using a UVB 5% tropical bulb(compact blub as it'll screw into a normal light fitting without costing you a light motor too) for one hour aday around 6pm to help them properly absorb the calcium, are you in the uk or another country?
also replace the hot rock with a heat mat and you dont need to light the leo's vivarium so you can turn off the bulb in there unless the room you keep her in has no windows to give natural also with the zocal-d you can put it into her water once you've done the month of syringe treatment (i can send you syringes for doing this as i have loads of spares and i can sort out the dosage you'll need to give her) then all you'll need to do is get the zocal-d and uvb compact bulb.

see what im sayin! there are so many people on this site that are knowledgable and willing to help! that is one of the coolest things about this forum!

Sorry!
I'm not one of those people. But i hope she's okay.

jess, dont appologize! nobody starts off knowing ANYTHING, we all had to learn what we know today. some are at a higher level of experience and knowledge...and none of us are any better than the next person(and i am confident the others feel the same), but all of us need help or ideas from time to time, and there is always someone willing to help! that is what these forums are for! one day im sure you will be giving help and ideas to others, but untill then just continue to learn and have fun with your animals! we all want you here no matter how much you know or help! what is important to most of us is: that we have a good group of friends that love our animals, enjoy each others company, and are here to share our animals and our experiences with the rest of us. and most importantly, to help each other provide our scaley friends with the best life possible!

Rick I like your style... keep up the good work hon

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for all your help and encouragement.
I've bought some calcium powder and that's now in a dish in her viv. Yesterday i got some little locusts and some wax worm to encourage eating. I fed her two locusts (dusted with nutrobal) and one wax worm dusted with calcium. Ive ordered t-rex bone aid (liquid calcium) and t-rex solar drops (uvb d3 suppliment for instead of uv bulb). I've started putting the light on during the day as the room isn't very bright. I've cut a hole in the side of her moist hide (it was in the top) as I suspect she's not strong enough to climb in the top.
I can get a 5%uv bulb and use that for an hour amday if you guys think I should do that too. She doesn't have a heat rock. Just a heat mat under the viv with a thermostat to regulate it.
Thanks for the offer of syringes Sam. I think I should be able together some from work.( I'm a teacher.)
I'll post on here how she's going this month.
Thanks again everyone

I dont know much about the calcuim products you have listed as I was told by me vet the best for the job is the Zolcal-d with 1hr of UVB 5% aday(its worked on all 3of mine) but hopefully yours will have high enough concetrates of calcium to do the job.
With regards to syringes you need 1ml ones but thats only if you use the Zolcal-d as you would give her 0.10ml by mouth daily.
yeah please let us all know how she gets on

Aww... Thanks Rich.
I'm still confused. Do you need a calcium dish if you dust all the food that goes in with neutrobal?

i would always offer a calcium bowl, no matter what...as they seem to know when they need more, and they lick it up.

Could you put neutrobal in it or is that to strong?