Prolapse in young female gecko

Our sweet little girl Dora has developed a recurring prolapse coming from her butt area. We got her in November from Petco, with another leo named Heidi.

We first noticed it 2 days ago while she was pooing. The thing was huge (almost half the size of her head) but we soaked her in some sugar water, rubbed some Preparation H. on the prolapse and set down some wet paper towels. The prolapse magically retracted entirely- it was exposed for a total of about 3.5 hours. There was a little blood.

Yesterday, we noticed it again right after she had poo'd. The poo looked a little more fluid than usual. The prolapse returned but was much, much smaller, yet there seemed to be a little more blood. Again, we did the Prep. H treatment but skipped the bath this time because we didn't want to stress her out. Spritsed the paper towels she was on to keep them wet and the prolapse went back in about 2 hours later.

Dora's cagemate Heidi has been growing much faster, but they've both been eating crickets daily and they seem to get along great- no fighting and they love to snuggle up next to each other. All the same, thinking I will need to isolate Dora soon to make sure she's eating well and that any infection won't spread to Heidi. Her tail has always been pencil thin- except the last couple of weeks, she has been on a binge and eating crickets up like a fiend. Earlier in the day before we saw the first prolapse happen, my girlfriend and I were even remarking how much healthier and fatter her tail looked!

Dora and Heidi live on a turf mat most of the time (wet paper towels when this happens though). So we are pretty sure we can rule out sand impaction but I'm not yet ruling out too much calcium powder, although not sure if that could even be a problem.

Last night Dora was acting a little crazy while the prolapse was still extended. Seemed to go from twitchy fits to really dragging her feet. We haven't seen her eat any crickets since the prolapse first appeared but will try again tonight. I'm wondering, is there something better that I should be feeding her right now to make sure she gets enough nutrients? The prolapse seems to be recovering and both times we've seen it, it went back in. Which is great because I'm really trying to avoid an expensive vet visit (which would have happened already, but the prolapse retracted). I want her to live though, obviously, so I will do whatever has to be done. Definitely losing sleep over it.

Anyway, I would really appreciate any advice on what to do at this point. My plan as it stands now, when we get home is to isolate her and try a couple of alternate food sources. Really thinking that she might have a parasite. Is there a safe home remedy to treat that? My other theory is that she isn't digesting the crickets that well due to her small frame and I might need to go with worms for her. We have been feeding them both calcium dusted crickets daily. There is a calcium dish in their cage and fresh water every day. There's a little dish of dried flies that I keep in there but I've never seen them eat from it. Temperatures between 75-85.

Right before this happened Dora seemed to be doing extremely well, it's devastating to see her health make such a shift. It's also terrible to wonder how she's doing while we're both stuck away at work.

We live in Seattle, any leads on a good herp vet?

Really appreciate any and all suggestions!

Bret, Laina, Dora & Heidi <3

Welcome and sorry your girls not well. First thing your temps are too low, 88-98 for the hot side and optimum digestion. That could be a big part of your problem. Low temperatures make for slow gi motility which leads to firm stools and eventually constipation. The runny poo is likely build up between solid poos. To start off with feeding a higher fiber feeder like crickets and thats adding to the firm stool. I would get her off crickets for a couple weeks, switch to phoenix worms, butter worms and wax worms, all soft bodied feeders higher in fat to help soften the stool. Usually you don't want a diet that high in fat but this is an exceptional case. Use the wax worms sparingly as they are addictive. You can also use a little dab of mineral oil on her nose for her to lap off to kind of grease the tracks and as a mild laxative to help pass the firmer stool. I would also put her in her own viv to reduce stress, monitor eating and reduce any chance of the other leo picking on her. Get her off the turf as it is a bacteria factory. Put her on regular paper towels for now to monitor any discharge she may have. So thats a start for now. If you could take a minute to fil out our care questonaire, its a stickie in the health section, it would help us spot any other problems in your husbandry that could be contributing to her problems.

Thank you so much for your quick and helpful response. We will go through with your suggestions and get the questionnaire filled out and posted here as soon as possible tonight.

Prolapse should always be evaluated by a reptile veterinarian. They are many causes, but parasites is one of the top contributing factors. I suggest a vet visit asap.

Good Luck and keep us updated:)

Absolutely a vet visit is always in order any time there is a health issue. Any advice given is just suggestions to try in the meanwhile to help retard the issue until you can get her to a vet. Since you have been feeding crickets there is a good chance it could be parasites. Is have fecals done on BOTH leos since out was community hosting both would likely be infected if it is parasites, but on the other hand since the other leo isn't symptomatic that kind of makes me think theres more to it. Once the questionnaire is posted we'll be better equipped to offer more suitable advice... Which is exactly what this is and is by no means meant to replace care by a qualified vet. Looking forward to getting more info and an update hope she's feeling a kettle better.

Care Questionaire:

About your leo: "Dora"
- Sex: Female (we think)
- Age & Weight: <1 Year old
- Morph (if you know): murphy patternless (we think)
- How long have you owned your leo: 1.5 months
- Where was he/she obtained: Petco
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred: Captive

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo: Once daily
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how: Loss of appetite
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe: Two individual cases of prolapse, 1 day apart. Now receded and looks healthy (more details in thread above).
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal: Somewhat wet, mildly runnier than usual.
- When was the last time he/she went: This afternoon. Prolapse did not return as far as we could tell.
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem/issue you are experiencing and how long it has been going on: Prolapse twice. Retracted within 3.5 hours both times. Now experiencing loss of appetite compared to last week.

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size: 10-gallon tank
- Type: glass
- Type of substrate: Paper towels, previously used turf mat.
- Hides: One large hide with a pool on the roof on the warm side. One small hide on the cool side of the tank.
B) Heating
- What is your main heat source: ZooMed Reptitherm UTH 10-20 gallon size mounted on side of tank. 2 heat lamps (one white day light, one red night light). Everything is plugged into a Temperature Controller that we have now set to 90 degrees F.
- What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side): Going to have to fudge this a little. We just got the temp. controller, so guessing later tonight we should be at high 80's like we should be. The cool side is about 5 degrees cooler. The tank has previously been kept between 75-85 degrees F. Will update tomorrow.
- Method of regulating your heat source: Zilla brand Temperature Controller.
- What are you using to measure your temps: One probe thermometer placed near the bottom of tank on the warm side, one stick temperature/humidity gauge on the cool side.
- Do you have any lights: One red and one white. We have been turning the night light on around 8pm and back to the day light around 8am.
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females): One female (we think) cagemate.
- Describe health, or previous problems of cage mates: Cage mate "Heidi" is doing extremely well, very healthy looking tail and active hunter. Growing fast. No problems there.

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding: Crickets
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding?: Daily, about 10 crickets. Both geckos have been very into the crickets. Today we got some wax worms and Heidi promptly gobbled up two. Tried to get Dora to eat one small one in isolation but she didn't seem to care about it.
- How are you feeding: Placed in cage.
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using: Zoo Med Repti Calcium (with D3)
- What multi vitimin are you using: None. Guess we need to get on that!
- How are you implimenting your suppliment program: Calcium dusted crickets twice to thrice per week. Calcium dish left in cage 24/7.
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with: Carrots mostly, lettuce occasionally.

We returned home from work today and found a very fresh Dora-esque poo in her usual spot. No prolapse and no blood anywhere on the paper towel lining, so that's a good sign. But, we haven't seen her eat anything yesterday or today. Tried a small waxworm on her but no dice. We gave her some exercise though and she seemed perky but a little weak. Heidi on the other hand is ravenous as ever and loves the new waxworms... Is there anything else we could feed Dora that might wet her appetite? It's almost like she's not seeing the food, but before the first prolapse two days ago she was actively hunting and catching crickets so we don't think she has a vision problem.

Separating them is probably key at this point but is going to have to wait a couple of days while we get together another viv. Planning to get the stools tested as soon as we can and hopefully that will fill in some blanks for us.

Thanks again for the helpful responses!

Heidi left, Dora right:


Not using the turf anymore, and no we didn't pose them like this

Thank you for filling out the questionnaire. A couple things I see is your temps are too low on the warm side, but that could be because your probe us inaccurately placed. It should be directly on the floor right over the uth for the most accurate reading. You need to have the hot side at least 93 imo for young leos like your girls. Juvies need it a bit warmer than adults. My boy thrives at 96-98, appetite stays up thru the winter, doesn't brumate like he did last year when I was keeping him at 90-93*f. Glad you got the carpet out of there. It'll help keep things more sanitary. Dori could be starting into her first ovulation which affects appetite but I think she's still a little young for that. If you could put her in a clear container and take some pix of her belly we could try to let you know if we see the tell tale signs of ovulation. Also lights well stress your leos out. Esp. Bright day light bulbs. All you really needed is a room with good daylight to establish day/night cycle, and the red lights also have been known to disturb some leos esp.those with red eyes. My boy hated thered light and he isn't even red eyed. If youre using it to suppliment heat you may want to switch to moonlight blue. It'll add about 6 degrees to your temps plus give your some viewing opportunity at night. Def.get the multi vit and fecals done to rule out parasites. Dori not going for the wax worms could be because they don't move enough to trigger prey drive. Could you elaborate on the pool you mentioned. Maybe a pic of your set up would help. Fyi a larger cage would be needed if you plan on keeping them together which I don't recommend since you don't know their gender. Also a minimum of 10 gallons is required per leo in a community setting. Since her poo is a bit runny you could try a lower fiber feeder like mealies mixed in with the soft bodied feeders ad crix. A mixed bug diet is most healthy for your leos for nutritional balnce. There's. Stcky in the feeding section that gives you the nutritional breakdown of most feeder insects. You really want low moisture, high protein mid line fats and fiber. I think using roaches or phoenix worms are a good nutritional guide to use since they're considered better staples for leos.

Well I think that's it for now. Let us know if she prolapses again and try to note anything out of the norm that might have happened that day that might have contributed to it, but mot important is ruling out parasites first.

Gotcha- so we set the heater up on the warm side of the tank, on the side of the tank (not the bottom) because we didn't want to burn them. Sounds like we may need to move the heater if we can't get the temperature up to where it should be. We have the probe set towards the far bottom of the tank slightly off the ground on the warm side.

We'll pick up a couple blue lights tonight. Interesting point about the ovulation, we'll see if we can talk her into a photo session later tonight.

The day before the first prolapse there are a couple things of note- our night light blew out that night so we had to leave the white light on all night to give them heat (didn't have the heat pad at that point either). So that might have stressed her out. Also she had been eating crickets very regularly every day, but the last two or three days before the first prolapse I did not dust the crickets with Calcium as per usual.

Again though, Heidi on the other hand is doing fantastic and hasn't missed a beat through all this. Partially because she's been doing so well we didn't realize we might have a couple of critical things badly wrong (like not enough heat!). But, maybe this was the catalyst we needed to realize to improve their living conditions for longer and better health overall. Just need to make it through the rough spot!

Separating them seems critical now. Sad because they really do seem to get along great but it's becoming pretty obvious Heidi is grabbing up all the food before Dora has had a chance. The waxworms we got yesterday are pretty huge for them though. I've read you're not supposed to feed leo's food that is longer than their head is wide. Is that justified? I stuck a waxworm in the tank in a food dish in front of their cave- It expanded and I started to wonder if I should take it out but Heidi gobbled it up before we could even blink. Then ate another smaller one later. This morning she was basking normally and looked great, had a very healthy looking poo yesterday evening, so I guess she is just the hardy one.

The heat mat absolutely has to go UNDER the tank, under their hot side hide. Leos are thigmatherms which means they get their heat from laying in/on things heated by the sun, unlike heliotherms, like bearded dragons that absorb their heat from over head. Belly great is how leos regulate their core temperature, so belly heat is moi importante. Besides think of it like this, of your body temp is 98.6 and youre suppose to keep your leo at 90-98 are they really gonna burn? No. are they gonna burn if they sit in your hands for an hour? No. your leo well not burn, they will thermoregulate and move if an area is too hot, its how they're programmed. They will suffer more from lack of proper heat than too much floor heat. If they were crested geckos then heat mat on the side would be proper but not for thigmathermic herps like leos that live in rocky craigs and crevices. Please move the uth to under the tank where it should be. My leos viv has been as high as 101 and he's alive and well. he just moved to the cooler side of his hot hide. Not dusting fo a couple days wouldn't do this. My leo is lucky to get dusted every 2 weeks cause I gutload his food with vitamin rich veggies annd he has calcium avilable 24/7. I do try to dust with multi vit weekly but I admit sometimes I forget. Seperating them won't be sad for them. Leos are solitary creatures and it goes aginst their natural programming to live in colonies. It stresses the weaker subordinates, subjects them to bullying by the aplhas who are constantly trying to reinforce their status and end up getting the crappy end of the stick which will shorten their lives, not to mention if they turn out to be male (since its very hard to sex before 6 mos old) they will fight to the death once they come to breeding age/size or if it is a mixed group could lead to premature breeding and a female that dies from being too small and getting egg bound. You would do we'll to read the sticky in the housing section on making the perfect leo set up. It covers all their habitat needs and gives a link to their wild habitat weather patterns so you can see just what they endure. Also when picking feeders the rule is nothing bigger AROUND than the gap between their eyes so the length is pretty irrelivant. My leo eats superworms, some of them approach close to 2.5-3 inches long and he'll eat 2-4 every other day with no issues. Usually 2, sometimes 3 rarely 4 tho.

Hope that helps clear some misconceptions up for you.

Heidi has now been moved to a separate tank and is living it up in there. Both tanks have under the tank heaters and we hooked Dora's tank up with a ceramic heater on the heat controller instead of a light. She's been very lethargic the last couple of days, but no prolapse until last night when I checked on her in the middle of the night and found a fresh poo and a couple bloody spots on the paper towel (but no prolapse at that time either). Assuming it came back out for a little bit. Haven't been able to catch her eating at all but last night we got her to lick a couple drops of baby food off her snout. We have an appointment at the vet today so hopefully we can wean her back to health soon! Wish us luck. Thanks for all of the insight to make her more comfortable in the meantime, she has a pretty swanky high-tech viv now anyway! Will let you know how it goes.

BTW you were right about the red light, Heidi was making it pretty clear she is not a fan of it in her new cage last night.. Going to switch her to ceramic as well.

Awesome you got her all set up on her own I love it when people take the advice they're given to heart. I tell ya... I scream and scream about the whole red light issue and always get such an argument about it. I actually did a study with my own leo over the course of a few months and various light sources so its not like something I pulled out of thin air. Thank you for being so willing to try something on blind faith.

Glad youre taking dori to the vet. I don't really think she prolapsed again, I don't think it would have retracted with out some intervention, but I do believe moreso now that she has a possible parasite issue. She could also have a genetic defect called a prolapsed rectum jn mammals, reptiles can suffer something similar, but since the problem only seems to center around bowel movements it makes me feel this even stronger. This could change as she matures and the gi muscles strengthen. Not sure id resort to the baby food just yet. Its addng more to the gi for it to cope with. If she's not eating there's a good reason for it. Last thing you really want to do is entice a sick animal to eat if they're not up for it. Its been less than a month off food, she won't starve.

Just got back from the vet- sadly the stool we provided was too dry for an accurate reading so we're waiting anxiously for her to poo again. The vet decided it was best to go ahead and treat for parasites anyway and gave us some Panacur and Baytril. They also gave us some food for her that we're supposed to mash up and mix with water to feed her.

They seemed to think Dora's "prolapse" is probably damaged tissue.

The vet warned against using the heat mats underneath but thought the side mount idea was solid. Her fear was that they can malfunction and burn the geckos. I think I'm probably ok because the heat controller will turn it off entirely when the set temperature is reached anyway but they didn't seem to think so. Going to leave it underneath for the weekend though. Right now the tank is maintaining a steady 90 degrees F and as I type Dora is having a drink at the pool on the roof of her hide.



They also said we need a UVB light (have one of those but Heidi is using it right now). Also recommended some brands of formula to gut-load the crickets with. I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting but that's basically it. So, we shall see!

Thanks once again for everything!

The vet is absolutely wrong about the heat may burning her if they malfunction. The max they can get up to is about 100*F and the only mat know that can do that are the cobra heat mats that I use. Even if it were to have a major malfunction she has a cool side, she's not stupid, she'd move. What dosing did the vet prescribe for he meds? How much? I worry because of their recommendation with the heat mat is totally wrong for leos. Your vet sounds a little misinformed. If you do use the uv bulb, which I don't encourage, id only do it for a couple hours a day for the vit. D benefit but since you're supplimenting with it already it truly is an unecessary stressor. I may not be a vet but I am an animal beavior specialist which does require you take several medical courses so I'm not a complete idiot when I make these suggestions to you. If dori is eating on her own making the crushed food is really not necessary but you can do it and dab it on her nose but don't force feed her, again just more stress. Id still like to see her viv a bit warmer at about 93*F. It'll ensure she has optimum digestion making it easier for her to poo.

Keep up the good work, tweak those couple things and let us know how it goes.

The Baytril is 0.04 mL by mouth once daily for 10 days, the Panacur is 0.005mL, administered by mouth once at the vet and one more time in 2 weeks. Dora did pretty well at the vet and with the first home treatment today.

We are a bit more at ease using the snout trick and seeing her eat the food mash from the vet for sure. Otherwise, we haven't seen her eat anything since Sunday so we figure a few drops of food on her snout a day can't hurt. Yesterday evening she poo'd successfully with only a teeny-tiny amount of blood and then today poo'd with no blood. Both poos very small. I wonder if our sweet little princess Dora knows how interested we are in her poop.

Was definitely worth a visit though, and with the exceptions of the UTH and the UVB issue they seemed to know what's up. Though I expect they have seen a lot more worst case scenarios than I hope I ever do.

That's awesome... Sounds like she's on the mend and parasites likely to blame. I'd still take a fecal sample in from youre other leo to make sure she's clean. Usually if one had it the other will too since they were housed together for some time, heidi could have easily picked up a parasite cyst left behind by dori. She just may have a bit stronger immune system and isn't symptomatic yet. You will want to use a probiotic in conjunction with the meds since the antibiotic and panacure will kill off all the good gut flora in your leos gi tract. Another staff member, sam, suggested a product called danone actimel, she suggested 4ml for a bearded dragon, so likely 1-1.5ml for a leo. Sounds  like the dosing they prescribed is right on. Keep up the good work

hey kermit
do you know if probiotics really work? a few years ago I had a black throat that was treated with baytril and I asked the vet then if I should use benebac and she told me it does not work because something like they don't have a type of enzyme needed. I see it probiotics mentioned alot but never found any articles if they work or not. have you read into this anywhere?

Peach if you would like to start a new thread in the general chat section I'd be happy to answer this for you as best as I can. I really don't want to take the thread off topic and its a good question.

We left the kids home alone for a day while we went out of town- I put 1 waxworm and 2 crickets in Dora's viv. When we returned tonight she had eaten everything! Two solid poo's with no blood again. Fed her again tonight with the dropper while we did her medicine and again put a couple of crickets in her viv, to our great relief she started actively hunting them again. Her appetite has returned!

Continuing with the daily Baytril (she took it immediately with almost no fuss today). Going to look into the probiotic. We may not be totally out of the woods yet because we still need to drop off the poo samples and see what Heidi's story is. Heidi as usual is looking extremely healthy. Moving them both to phoenix worms as soon as possible and also looking to improve our gut-loading procedures.

Can't thank you enough Kermit for your awesome help with this. Between your expertise and the vet visit Dora is doing really well now. Great success!

I am so happy to hear all this...literally smiling ear to ear for you and dori. You are so welcome for all the help. It makes me extremely happy when I'm able to help and the owner takes what their told and actually apply it. More owners should be like y'all are. When you get a chance, check out the topic peach posted about do probiotics work. Theres a couple supplements I mention in there that I think could really help dori. I'm glad heidi is still acting normal and healthy, thats a great sign she was able to avoid the parasite that has dori aa bit messed up. Still get the fecal, I know youre planning on it, lets just be sure. Keep up the awesome work y'all are doing, youre excellent owners and it shows