NEW leo owner with a few questions

Hello all
I just got my lil buddie 2 days ago & i love it! His 1st time eating was last night & it seemed hard to catch the crickets it kinda looked like he was giving up so i made sure the crickets stayed by him so it was easier for him to catch.
He sleeps alot & hes little maybe 3in long is that normal? His temps are good the cool side is about 75 and warm side is between 90 & 95. He has a wood hut but likes this 1 corner of the cage seems thats where he always sleeps. I have handled him & at 1st hes jumpy but after a few minutes of holding him he seems fine.
My first leo 2 days in & im in love with him. Im just worried with all his sleeping & him not being so eager to eat.
I keep calling it a him im not even sure if its a boy or girl lol how old till you can tell?

Hello and welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy yourself here! I'm Kathryn.

Haha, I'm glad you are enjoying your leopard gecko! Be warned, they are very addicting! I started with one and now have 10, along with a few other reptiles. :P

Leopard geckos are crepuscular, meaning they come out at dawn and dusk. You won't see your leopard gecko very active during the day. My leopard geckos begin coming out around 8 o'clock pm.

Your gecko sounds fairly young, which would also be a reason your leo is sleeping a lot. Babies sleep and eat. :P You won't be able to sex him until he is around 6 months old. Would you be able to post a picture for us?

Temps sound good. Try not to let them fluctuate too much from 90-95. A steady temperature is best.

I would give him a few days to settle in before handling him too much. He's been through a lot going from wherever you bought him to his new home. A week is generally the recommended time before you begin handling.

Most leos won't eat for a few days after coming to a new home. Gotta give them some time to settle in.

Again welcome!

Welcome to the forum... just to add to the great andser Kathryn has already given you... you can try cooling your crickets in teh refrigerator for about a half hour before feeding them... it slows them down, or you could also remove the jumper legs to slow them down, but do it carefully or you'll kill the cricket and won't be able toreuse it if he doesnt eat it. Another choice would be small meal worms... slower moving and easier to catch. Your fella sound real young, so yeah sleep and eat and poop is about it. For leos that young it is generally recommended to keep the viv a bit warmer so I'd shoot for that 95-98 range to make sure he has all he needs. You're providing a temp gradient for him to thermoregulate so it would be fine. Also you want to use multiple hides for these little ones. it makes them feel more secure. Make sure they are over the heat mat (uth) you ARE using a uth right? And on the cool side as well. Can you tell us what type of substrait you're using. Let's make sure your set up is perfect so this little one will thrive. Also are you using a suppliment program with multi vit and calcium?

If you could take a minute to fill out our care questionaire it would help the membership to be able to spot any deficiencies in your husbandry that might set you back or harm your little one. You can find it here: http://www.leopardgeckoforum.com/t134-please-read-and-fill-out-with-your-health-questions just copy/paste it into the thread with your answers.

Thanks so much for the advice!

Yes im using the heat mat & i have 1 hide on the warm side & another on the cool side. Ive been putting the vitamin D powder on the crickets b4 feeding. I was reading to put some in a cap in the tank but i also read that leaving that in the tank all the time can harm them if they eat to much of it. & i will fill that out thanks so much for the advice & if you think of anything else please tell

Oh, it looks like a nice leo.

Thank you

Won't be able to tell you much more until you fill out the questionnaire honestly. You should have a dish of PURE calcium in the viv with the baby at all times then dust every other feeding with calcium with D3, plus a multi vitamin every other feeding as well. I would use more hides if you'd like to have a chance of seeing your leo out exploring more. Yes you can overdose with any suppliment for the moist part except pure calcium so don't keep anything but pure phosphorous free calcium in the viv. Lil ones feel more secure with more hides. I'd at least have 2 on the warm side.

Care Questionaire:

About your leo:
- Sex : Unknown
- Age & Weight : Not sure of either but it’s a baby 
- Morph (if you know)
- How long have you owned your leo: Two days
- Where was he/she obtained (Pet store, breeder, wild caught, etc.) : Pet store (Petsmart)
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo: Have 1 time
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how : He seems a lil more active
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.: No
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal: From the pics ive seen they look normal
- When was the last time he/she went: Just now…& I just cleaned the cage lol
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem/issue you are experiencing and how long it has been going on

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size- 20 gallon
- Type (ex. glass tank, screen enclosure, tub kept)- It’s a glass tank with a screen top
- Type of substrate (sand, vinyl tiles, ceramic/stone tiles, etc.)- Paper towels
- Hides (how many, location and type (hothide, humid hide, regular hide etc.)
: I have 3 hides, 1 on the warm side, another more in between the cool & warm side, & then a humid hide in a plastic container with a hole cut in it with damp moss inside


B) Heating
- What is your main heat source (heat bulbs, under tank heat mat etc) **Please include the brand and size of your UTH if you use one** : Under tank heater it’s a 8w Zoo Med
- What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side): Hot Side is 96 & cool side is 73
- What are you using to measure your temps (probe thermometer, infrared lazer tempo gun, stick on temp gauge, etc) : it’s a indoor/outdoor probe thermometer
- Do you have any lights (describe type (red,blue, basking etc) and cycle duration): I Have a blue light but have not used it much
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females): 0
- Describe health, or previous problems of cage mates

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding: Baby crickets
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding? 1 time a day & about 4 crickets. It really wont eat anymore
- How are you feeding (hand fed, tongs/tweezers, left in dish, ect): Just put in cage
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using (please include brand): I have fluckers calcium with vitamin D
- What multi vitimin are you using (please include brand): I have not got 1 yet can someone recommend one to me?
-How are you implimenting your suppliment program (how often do you dust with each suppliment, do you leave calcium in the tank 24/7 etc.)- I have dusted evey feeding & will be picking up the calcium tomorrow
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with
- My boyfriend gave me something just for the crickets im keeping now but unsure of the name. So if someone can give me a good brand for this as well I can pick some up for my next feeding

Pretty much any multi vit will work well but I personally prefer the all in 1 supplements like repashy calcium plus or t rex brand complete leopard gecko dust icb by sandfire foods. Its your multi vit and calcium plus D3 all in 1. Pretty hard to screw up dosing with that plus you don't need to keep plain calcium in the viv usually unless your leo is very young or a laying female, they should have calcium available always (until about 6-7 mos old for juvie leos). Most everything in your questionnaire looked pretty good. Best gutloade for crix is usually just veggie scraps and you can give them flukers orange cubes to suppliment.

ehenne1 wrote:Care Questionaire:

About your leo:
- Sex : Unknown
- Age & Weight : Not sure of either but it’s a baby 
- Morph (if you know)
- How long have you owned your leo: Two days
- Where was he/she obtained (Pet store, breeder, wild caught, etc.) : Pet store (Petsmart)
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo: Have 1 time
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how : He seems a lil more active
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.: No
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal: From the pics ive seen they look normal
- When was the last time he/she went: Just now…& I just cleaned the cage lol
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem/issue you are experiencing and how long it has been going on

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size- 20 gallon
- Type (ex. glass tank, screen enclosure, tub kept)- It’s a glass tank with a screen top
- Type of substrate (sand, vinyl tiles, ceramic/stone tiles, etc.)- Paper towels
- Hides (how many, location and type (hothide, humid hide, regular hide etc.)
: I have 3 hides, 1 on the warm side, another more in between the cool & warm side, & then a humid hide in a plastic container with a hole cut in it with damp moss inside


B) Heating
- What is your main heat source (heat bulbs, under tank heat mat etc) **Please include the brand and size of your UTH if you use one** : Under tank heater it’s a 8w Zoo Med
- What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side): Hot Side is 96 & cool side is 73
- What are you using to measure your temps (probe thermometer, infrared lazer tempo gun, stick on temp gauge, etc) : it’s a indoor/outdoor probe thermometer
- Do you have any lights (describe type (red,blue, basking etc) and cycle duration): I Have a blue light but have not used it much
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females): 0
- Describe health, or previous problems of cage mates

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding: Baby crickets
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding? 1 time a day & about 4 crickets. It really wont eat anymore
- How are you feeding (hand fed, tongs/tweezers, left in dish, ect): Just put in cage
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using (please include brand): I have fluckers calcium with vitamin D
- What multi vitimin are you using (please include brand): I have not got 1 yet can someone recommend one to me?
-How are you implimenting your suppliment program (how often do you dust with each suppliment, do you leave calcium in the tank 24/7 etc.)- I have dusted evey feeding & will be picking up the calcium tomorrow
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with
- My boyfriend gave me something just for the crickets im keeping now but unsure of the name. So if someone can give me a good brand for this as well I can pick some up for my next feeding

Crickets need dry grain. You can use the cubes, but you should also use high calcium cricket gutload at least 48 hours of feeding them to your gecko. The crickets will provide a good amount of D3 gutloaded with this and so you should not use Calcium with D at each feeding of any brand. Just plain calcium dusted very lightly. Calcium with D3 2X for young a week only. You can overdose D3.

Herp you can overdose ANY vitamin suppliment, its called hypervitaminosis, but it is VERY difficult to do, even the scientific studies have confirmed this. Youre being a bit of an alarmist and top breeders even recommend dusting leos up to 6 months old every feeding when using an all in 1 suppliment. Then switch to every other feeding for dusting. Also where is it stated crix need dry grain? Crix are veggie/foliage eaters so dry grain isn't exactly their natural diet. If a person takes a minute to google veggies high in calcium, vit.D, And vit. A is your best bet instead of stuffing your feeders full of man made suppliments instead of using natural sources for those suppliments. Natural is always better than processed man made junk.

I see a pattern to your posts herp and it is disturbing. If you're going to make such bold contrairy statements please follow it up with some type of documentation to validate your points.

I appreciate everyones help & suggestions! Im very thankful

Kermit you really underestimate my knowledge, but I assure you I am not just someone passing around unjustified information.

Breeders are not veterinarians so their suggestions are not reliable in regards to fat soluble vitamins and their main purpose is to sell them. You want real updates of what's happening to reptiles with all these products? Ask your vets.

Keep in mind every brand has different amount of Vitamin D3.
The scientific evidence is on humans not small reptiles who are under 1kg in weight.

You have no idea how many geckos have died and what does the necropsy show? Calcification of the arteries heart, kidney and soft tissues,kidney failure, gout ect.

Who bothers to take their geckos to the vet and run toxicology reports? almost zero. They take their geckos once all the damage is done and it can take years.

If I am being an alarmist it's within reason because I have seen it over and over again and I do care and want to help prevent this from reoccuring.

herp625 wrote:Kermit you really underestimate my knowledge, but I assure you I am not just someone passing around unjustified information.

Breeders are not veterinarians so their suggestions are not reliable in regards to fat soluble vitamins and their main purpose is to sell them. You want real updates of what's happening to reptiles with all these products? Ask your vets.

Keep in mind every brand has different amount of Vitamin D3.
The scientific evidence is on humans not small reptiles who are under 1kg in weight.

You have no idea how many geckos have died and what does the necropsy show? Calcification of the arteries heart, kidney and soft tissues,kidney failure, gout ect.

Who bothers to take their geckos to the vet and run toxicology reports? almost zero. They take their geckos once all the damage is done and it can take years.

If I am being an alarmist it's within reason because I have seen it over and over again and I do care and want to help prevent this. from reaccuring.

Maybe if you want to baken as credible and serious once in a while you should provide some links to the things you state instead of wanting the forum to just take your word for it when so much is contrairy but you refuse to do any of that or even let anyone know what field of work you might be into that grants you this insight. Whenever you're asked for further evidence or proof of something you amazingly disappear off the thread. Breeders aren't vets but breeders do necropsy, breeders research and study just about as much if they're ethical experienced beeders and not these idiots that breed 2 pet store leos together and call themselves breeders and honestly with as much wrong information that I've seen ignorent vets give out I'm more willing to trust the breeder wity 10 years of daily experience over most vets any day. I can't tell you how many vets I've seen prescribe rabbits amoxicillin to ignorent to the fact it will kill them but any rabbit breeder can tell you the truth. For every vet that graduated top of his cass there's 100 more that barely graduated yet still practice. Individuals that use a bit of logic, understanding, and research will be more educated than most non-herp vets when it comes to treating or understanding their herps needs.

While we certainly appreciate anything you have to contribute, be prepared to back it up if its called for gladly and willingly.

Now that I have taken this thread completely I apologise to the op and the membership. Please let's get back on track

I amazinly dissapear?

No, I just don't have the luxury of time to sit behind a computer and debate. I don't expect anyone just to take my word, instead do their research.

I can't post necropsy photos and certain things. Only some things I have saved on my computer.

http://www.articlesbase.com/pets-articles/leopard-gecko-calcium-why-calcium-is-important-1181571.html

http://swanimalhospital.net/html/infosheets/leopardgeckoinfo.html

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reptiles-704/gecko-12.htm

http://the-lizard-lounge.com/content/library/lizard-diseases/hyper-vitaminosis.asp

http://www.triciaswaterdragon.com/kidney.htm

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm

http://www.exoticpetvet.com/breeds/iguanageckos.htm **** UVB should not be used in an enclosure less than 3 feet long.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reptiles-704/leoparad-gecko.htm

http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/04/what-exactly-is-gutloading/

Breeders vs vets, both have good info sometimes, both have their own agendas. One common agenda for both is to make money, so it's important to note that in the back of our minds. Comparing both, you have good breeders and you got bad breeders. Same with vets, you got vets that really truly care, vs vets that just want to make a quick buck prescribing things you don't need. I've personally experienced the negative side of both.

It's important to do your own research and not just take anybody's word for anything honestly. Hypervitaminosis is a serious issue, just as MBD is a serious issue. When feeding/supplementing geckos, it's best to do things in moderation just to be safe. Too little, you run into chance of MBD or a skinny gecko, or a breeder female that pumps out infertile/bad eggs. Too much, you run into fatty liver disease, hypervitaminosis, and clogging issues which all are fatal to leopard geckos regardless of age/sex.

So to take things in moderation, I'd recommend dusting supplements with D3 only 2-3 times a week max. That's just my personal recommendation, nothing scientific, I'm no doctor nor a mass breeder with over a thousand geckos in stock. But I've done plenty of research to know too much and too little can cause problems.

Our routine here is to dust with repashy calcium plus (with D3) on the weekend feedings (Saturday & Sunday). Rest of the week we dust with Zoo Med Reptivite (without D3). Female breeders and hatchlings/juvenile get an additional serving of repashy calcium plus during the week. Our feeders are well gut-loaded as is, so no geckos are deprived of nutrients. And most of our geckos have fat plump tails with no protein bubbles in the armpits...which pretty much means they're as healthy as they can be.

Anyways that's my take on it, just a personal opinion. You're bound to get different opinions on how to do things on the forums. As a leopard gecko owner, it's up to you to find out how to best take care of your pets and find your own routine that works for you and your geckos

herp625 wrote:

ehenne1 wrote:Care Questionaire:

About your leo:
- Sex : Unknown
- Age & Weight : Not sure of either but it’s a baby 
- Morph (if you know)
- How long have you owned your leo: Two days
- Where was he/she obtained (Pet store, breeder, wild caught, etc.) : Pet store (Petsmart)
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo: Have 1 time
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how : He seems a lil more active
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.: No
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal: From the pics ive seen they look normal
- When was the last time he/she went: Just now…& I just cleaned the cage lol
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem/issue you are experiencing and how long it has been going on

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size- 20 gallon
- Type (ex. glass tank, screen enclosure, tub kept)- It’s a glass tank with a screen top
- Type of substrate (sand, vinyl tiles, ceramic/stone tiles, etc.)- Paper towels
- Hides (how many, location and type (hothide, humid hide, regular hide etc.)
: I have 3 hides, 1 on the warm side, another more in between the cool & warm side, & then a humid hide in a plastic container with a hole cut in it with damp moss inside


B) Heating
- What is your main heat source (heat bulbs, under tank heat mat etc) **Please include the brand and size of your UTH if you use one** : Under tank heater it’s a 8w Zoo Med
- What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side): Hot Side is 96 & cool side is 73
- What are you using to measure your temps (probe thermometer, infrared lazer tempo gun, stick on temp gauge, etc) : it’s a indoor/outdoor probe thermometer
- Do you have any lights (describe type (red,blue, basking etc) and cycle duration): I Have a blue light but have not used it much
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females): 0
- Describe health, or previous problems of cage mates

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding: Baby crickets
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding? 1 time a day & about 4 crickets. It really wont eat anymore
- How are you feeding (hand fed, tongs/tweezers, left in dish, ect): Just put in cage
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using (please include brand): I have fluckers calcium with vitamin D
- What multi vitimin are you using (please include brand): I have not got 1 yet can someone recommend one to me?
-How are you implimenting your suppliment program (how often do you dust with each suppliment, do you leave calcium in the tank 24/7 etc.)- I have dusted evey feeding & will be picking up the calcium tomorrow
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with
- My boyfriend gave me something just for the crickets im keeping now but unsure of the name. So if someone can give me a good brand for this as well I can pick some up for my next feeding

Crickets need dry grain. You can use the cubes, but you should also use high calcium cricket gutload at least 48 hours of feeding them to your gecko. The crickets will provide a good amount of D3 gutloaded with this and so you should not use Calcium with D at each feeding of any brand. Just plain calcium dusted very lightly. Calcium with D3 2X for young a week only. You can overdose D3.

Ehenne I forgot to mention that when I said grain, I meant your gecko and the crickets need a good amount of protein. If not the crickets will end up cannibalizing each other. Fruit is not a source of protein and veggies are very low in protein.

Ok not liking that first link because they recommend sands substrait, or at least endorse the use of it which wet know is wrong. For that fact alone out makes me question the validity of the entire article.

I'm almost disgusted that second link comes from a vet hospital. Soooo many issues, doesn't mention mbd asa common problem, recommending dusting leo food with food meant for iguanas which are herbavoirs not carnivores do completely different supplemental needs, the temperatures they suggest are all wrong, they suggest using calcium with phosphorous as we all know is WRONG, they suggest bright non-uvb lighting... The list goes in and on... Not a reliable source imo.

The third link isn't even from professionals but a general public offered information system so not even a dog in this fight. No different than a forum but at least we offer accurate information.

The 4th link I can't even allow as it is a link to another forum/community board so again user donated information. Sorry but that one had to be deleted.

The 5th link to the lizard lounge offers nothing but vague definitions, not very useful. First grade stuff.

The 6th link is great... If you own an iguana. Some of the info can be applied in a general reptile sense but most pertains to iguanas not leos so again, good to know but...

The 7th link provided some interesting through info about herps and uv needs however out does reinforce that leos really don't search out uv lighting or need it and actually reinforced their sensitivity to it.

The 8th link, written by a vet also had inconsistencies, don't use sands or particle substrait but post miss and soil are particle substrait so... Then the uv info...another point if argument imo he's using outdated info, maybe he should continue his education do he's up to speed with accurate info.

Link 9...again a user donated based site...no different from us and unreliable...leos aren't nocturnal do not even accurate imo.

Lastly link 10, gutloading... The ONLY link I agree with 100%.

No wonder so many people are getting so much misinformation. If these are an example of the sources youre using to get "reliable"info, you might want to dig a little deeper because most of that is unfortunately... Junk. Sorry.

Mardy I totally agree with you and have said it myself 1000 times. Educate yourself with reliable studies offered by universities, scientific studies, and scientists. My job here is to educate and to make people think... Hopefully I've achieved that. Thanks for the offer of those links herp, I appreciate youre attempt to provide backing to where youre getting youre point of view. And much like you I don't have all day to spend in front of a computer screen but its amazing how much good info you can find out thru just a couple hours good research using reputable sources.

Your post about leos and crickets needing grain meaning protein...wth does that mean? Fruits and veggies are used to gutloadfor vitamin supplementation not protein... The meat of the cricket if where the protein comes from, the may comes from proper diet suited to that animal. Crickets eat foliage, not meat (' cept maybe occasionally) do once again, inaccurate info, sry. You might want to re read your last link about proper gutloading again hon.

I get it. It's okay. Like I mentioned this was just a few things which all included a few clues regarding Vitamin D. At least the OP is aware and can discuss it with a veterinarian.

*edited by Kermit*

I certainly am not the only one thats right on this forum but I will be the first to point out inaccurate information that is unreliable and inaccurate. I thought after your experiences with kodie that youre attitude would have changed a bit more positive and less insultive... Guess I was wrong. I'm sorry to see that because sometimes you do have good things to offer.

In my opinion all information that is presented to someone to answer or help with their queries should all be accurate reliable as if a new leo owner was to follow false information it may or could lead to unwanted consequences. (this is just my opinion people )

herp625 wrote:

Breeders are not veterinarians so their suggestions are not reliable in regards to fat soluble vitamins and their main purpose is to sell them. You want real updates of what's happening to reptiles with all these products? Ask your vets.

I am not a vet, this is very very true. I would never try to pretend that I am. But I AM a Breeder and I assure you that my main purpose is NOT to sell my leos. I have refused to sell my leos to some people because I was not comfortable with their level of knowledge. I would rather keep them all then have them go to a home that will not take care of them properly. My leos health and welfare come above and beyond all. In fact I have one reptile that has now cost me 400.00 already and today should cost me another couple hundred at the vets. This is not due to my lack of knowledge or damage caused because I do not know what I am doing. Some times things happen that you can not avoid.

I appreciate and understand that you are allowed your own opinion, please just do not generalize.

James wrote:In my opinion all information that is presented to someone to answer or help with their queries should all be accurate reliable as if a new leo owner was to follow false information it may or could lead to unwanted consequences. (this is just my opinion people )

We all believe that what we say is accurate until proven otherwise and why it's important to do your own research and draw your own conclusion.

Kermit- I don't have an attitude, just dry humor

smsararas2- I am a very neutral person. I respect everyone and believe there is good and bad in every proffession or hobby. I was only referring to Vitamin D in everything I said. The only way to know if a reptile is getting accurate amounts is by blood work and diagnostics which can only be provided by a veterinarian.

Sorry OP.

hi ehenne i to have just brought my first leo but mine is a little bigger i have the nervous time of wondering if everything is okay and i am doing things right as my liitle girl seems to be hiding in her hide alot but im putting this down to how scared she was bringing her home she has pooed yesterday and eaten 2 crickets day one and i just added 2 more so ill see how she goes. im planning on leaving her about 3 or 4 days before attempting to handle her as she is visiually scared whenever i go in the viv. congrats hope like me u are as smitten with urs as i am