Proper Heating

It is against forum rules to post links from other forums, please edit your post. I also wanted to add that I am a member at that forum and the info he provided is his opinion, just like info obtained on most forums and should be taken with the same degree of skepticism as any unvalidated information that isn't cited directly they a reliable link such as a university or scientific study, because as you wool not he called leos nocturnal, which as we all know is inaccurate, and providing property belly heat is the best way to effect core temperature.

I understand. Can you delete the thread? Thank You

You edited the post which is fine, no need to delete it as it is good to show all points of view when deciding what is best for our herps. Different points of view that provide educated information is always welcome as it opens debate and thru debate the learning process takes place. Thanks for the edit

Here is a good example and a valid study.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1564552

It confirms that the preferred optimum body temperature of a leopard gecko is 86 degrees and how it effects appetite and growth. If you take the temperature of their body from above laying on the heat mat, unless the air temp is 85 their body will not reach preferred optimum body temperature.

This is why during the winter the geckos who's air temperatures are not monitored lose their appetite and become inactive. It is not healthy on their livers to go without eating for long periods. They have no choice in the wild, not that it's what they prefer and is healthy for them.

Yes, the overhead bulbs as a secondary heat source sucks the humidity, but we cannot sacrifice one thing for another, instead find a solution. Add water dishes or by placing a wet towel over part of the tank. I house most of mine in wooden enclosures which prevents the humidity loss.

http://lllreptile.com/info/library/care-and-husbandry-articles/-/reptilian-brumation/

Here's a brief article on brumation. While I agree that air temps are important and that loss of appetite is usually a symptom, I have to disagree that in the winter when they go "dormant" it is not such a bad thing. However, in the summer spring and fall, when temps are proper and can be maintained well loss of appetite can be a bad thing.

Thanks for sharing!

I am thinking very hard on how to explain this without sounding sarcastic An article that comes from a buisness is not what you want to rely on. My belief comes from in-depth anatomy point of view. What's best for the body, longterm effects, ect. In the wild reptiles are forced to brumate due to bad temperatures. Living off of fat reserves is the major contributor to hepatic lipidosis and so it's not a good idea to allow them to go off food very long.

Just to correct a mis-statement, animals aren't forced into brumation it is a natural process that takes place jn almost all cold blooded animals. Their bodies are designed to withstand this with minimal side effects and in fine animals it is required for them to ovulate and breed. It takes more than air temperature to send an animal into brumation, it takes drops in temperature, changes in humidity, changes in daylight, and changes in availability of food. The problems your speaking of might possibly be a result of artificially induced brumation, something that breeders do to extend their breeding season, which I do not support as that is out of their natural programming even if it is tricking their own natural abilities. Don't look at articles from businesses with so much skepticism, one in particular that comes to mind is a dog catalogue put out by 2 veterinarians called drs foster and smith which does include great articles that are accurate. Also just an fyi, wooden vivs don't prevent loss of humidity, but they do hold moisture better than glass because there is minimal ventilation and wood is more porous than glass but down side to that is they also hold the potential to harbor bacteria and other nasties that won't seep into a glass viv. Just food for thought.

I think you have missed my point. If it's all a natural process in captivity, than how can you explain my geckos NOT going off food ever? Obviously because I keep their enclosures temperatures and humidity stable all year around. I am sure you are aware it's not healthy for them to go off food long and become dehydrated from low humidity. Hepatic Lipidosis is found in at least 75% of geckos post- mortem. Once the liver starts to malfunction other organs will as well. Eating less is one thing, but stopping completely for long periods is not ideal.

You're able to adequately maintain temps a humidity. There is no reason for them to brumate. I feel like you miss the reasons reptiles brumate.

Not at all. Brumation is a strategy used by reptiles in order to cope with the drop in temperature and lack of food during winter. There is no need for it in captivity is my point.

Brumation isn't needed in captivity really. Its not a necessity within their life, its only their way of maintaining throughout colder temperatures, if colder temperatures never show up, then brumation is not needed of course.

Some owners may "force" their gecko's into brumation for the purpose of cycling their collection. Forcing a gecko into brumation by lowering temps will cause them to believe it is breeding season once the temps are risen again, this can be done at any point of the year and so its a technique used by larger breeders to maintain eggs all year. Half the group breeds naturally in season, the other half is forced into brumation and breeds through a false breeding season, to which they believe is the correct breeding season.


Hope that makes sense to everyone.

herp625 wrote:Not at all. Brumation is a strategy used by reptiles in order to cope with the drop in temperature and lack of food during winter. There is no need for it in captivity is my point.

"This is why during the winter the geckos who's air temperatures are not monitored lose their appetite and become inactive". In fact, now I'm quite sure you don't understand why reptiles brumate.

You brought up brumation. This thread has nothing to do with brumation. That quote was explaining how when they are too cold they will not eat. You changed the subject.

Lets get this thread back on topic which is likely impossible at this point seeing as how the original post had been removed. Again lets not argue and point fingers in the thread but have an intelligent debate.if that's not possible another thread will be locked and assessed for further possible action. I really don't want to see that gus so lets keep the maturity and intelligence levels up m' kay

Although I haven't had any experience with leo brumation (My two are still eating and active!) my beardie brumates like clockwork. With bearded dragons at least, many of them will brumate no matter what you do.

I remember reading somewhere that it was good for them, because it gives their bodies a chance to use up their extra fat stores. It makes sense to me since a lot of beardies are on the pudgy side. I'm no expert though!

Thanks Kermit,

I just wanted to make him aware it was heading off topic:)

Youre welcome herp but please keep in mind since the first thread was deleted the original topic point is kind of lost and this has morphed into a brumation thread.if you'd like to repeat what your original topic point was that would certainly help to keep things on track so were debating the topic you intended

I re-read the post carefully to see how you ended up with brumation and I am guessing that your thought was the reason some stop eating due to brumation. Leopard geckos do not brumate in captivity, it's pseudo (not real). In order for them to go in brumation you will have to shut off all heating equipment. You would have to allow the temperatures to go below 60. This is why I mentioned it's not a good idea to allow temps and humidity to just drop. The heat mat alone will provide some heat and so they will start using their fat restores. They refuse to eat because the conditions are not optimal for digestion. The low humididty can cause dehydration and so by not eating it's a way the body protects itself. Drop in temperatures is another cue, "I will not be able to digest food properly."

I hope this explains my main post which was regarding the importance of monotoring air temps in the winter to provide their body with the preferred optimal body temperature. This is how the geckos end up with what's called by vets "the winter blues". Bacterial Infections of the intestines due to waste accumulating to potentially toxic levels.

Jess,

There is no scientific evidence up to date that suggest it's a benefit. Here is a little info. Keep in mind that most of what you read is their actions in the wild.

Some reptiles, like Bearded dragons (Pogona spp.) do not actually brumate, but rather goes into a "slumber" where they stay awake, but their activity and metabolism is drastically reduced. This reduced activity is induced by colder night temperatures.

Darn I accidently closed out the article. Once I find it again I will post it.

I feel that you should re-read your source again. It would be completely, irrefutably accurate if Leopard Gecko's were nocturnal. However, their known to be crepuscular rather than nocturnal.

A Leopard Gecko is a leopard gecko regardless if the refer to them as nocturnal or crepuscular. The term crepuscular has not been used for very long so it means nothing.

Ok apparently things haven't cooled down so This thread is going to be locked if you guys can't have an intelligent RESPECTABLE debate with out the snark.

Just to add regardless if the term crepuscular hasn't been used in a long time or not does NOT make it mean nothing... it is HIGHLY relivant to uour leo's proper care because if we treat them like the more common INACCURATE term of noctournal, we will not be doing them proper justice.

Also when the term "Brumation" is used in regards to our captive kept leos it is used in the loosest sense of the term, if it were a complete shut down where all heat would be removed that would be hibernating, brumation is a slowing down of the system due to seasonal changes in the atmosphere/environment. Wild or captive will brumate if the circumstances call for it... they will reduce activity, they will reduce food intake, they will slow resperation and metabolism accordingly which is why if you KNOW your leo is brumating you should offer minimal meals, not 20 mealies at a sitting, and keep a constant consistant heat source in order to prevent GI stasis from the brumation. It takes more than lack of heat alone to make a leo brumate.

I was referring to the study. I am lost. Who has not calmed down. I don't see any problems with the conversation. At least as for me I thought it was an intelligent conversation.

The study, to me, holds little value if they cannot get the basic details of the scientific nature of Leo's correct. You can't talk to someone about cars and call a catalytic converter a flux capacitor. (I guess you would need to know cars and Back to the Future to understand that analogy, haha)

It's okay. I know everything I have stated is valid. Like I mentioned before I am a private person and there is a reason I cannot provide you with further documents without exposing my personal life and career. My intentions was to share the information for the benefits or our geckos not to start a disagreement. My words are not based on one single article, I give you my word. I know it's futile, but I tried. Everyone has the right to their own belief and opinion and I respect that.