Urban Gecko Question...

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Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:21 am

Well as i was told by Jordan...its not good to mix breed geckos....but on the urban gecko website it seems as if thats what they're doing? i mean idk much about leos like most of you do but some of his leos are just names i've never seen before....and even though jordan already told me i would like to hear other breeders opinions....why is not good to mix leo's when breeding? i dont plan on breeding anytime soon im just very very curious...
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by kathstew on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:50 am

You aren't supposed to mix the albino strains.
Here is an answer I wrote about that on another thread:
Breeding albinos is generally frowned upon by breeders because it
muddies the genetics. It gets a bit technical and I don't know all the
proper terms, but from what I understand is:
say you breed a tremper
albino to a rainwater albino. the babies will look like normals but will
carry both albino traits (meaning they will be het for both). Albino is
a recessive trait, so you need 2 genes (I think gene is the right word)
of it, to make it homozygous (I think thats the right word - which
means its expressing a recessive trait).

The problem is, if you
take one of the tremper/rainwater babies and breed it to another baby
with a similar background (i.e albino hets), then you can't tell what
those hatchlings are. What is it het for and what is it homozygous for?
Is it a tremper or rainwater? Is it tremper het rainwater, or rainwater
het tremper? You'd need to do years of test breeding to figure out what
it is.

That is just my understanding of it though Wink
- http://www.leopardgeckoforum.com/t2059-just-curious-about-albinos#19297

I can't really recall any other morphs that shouldn't be crossed besides albinos.

A note: the different morphs such as blizzard, tangerine, etc aren't different breeds. They are different morphs. They are all the same species, they are just carrying different genes. Like we are all humans, but someone may carry genes for blue eyes, or red hair etc.

Urban gecko is mixing different morphs together, but he isn't (as far as I know) mixing albino strains.
If you'd like to see what some of the morphs available are (and a break down of them), you can look here.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:59 am

so kath if i have a shtct and a normal and i mix those chances are ill get a? and is that allowed to be done?
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by kathstew on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:24 pm

I'm still learning about morphs, and what you get when mix what, so take what I say now with a grain of salt lol or whatever that saying is xD

I BELIEVE you will get hypos that will show carrot tail and tangerine coloring. And yes, it can be done. Smile As I said, from what I know the only mixing you can't do is mixing albino strains. There are three albino strains - tremper albino, bell albino and rainwater albino.

In case you don't know, SHTCT means Super hypo (no spotting on the body) tangerine (orangey coloring) carrot tail (orangey yellow tail like a carrot :P )

Edit: try playing around with http://www.lovegeckos.com/Genetics.aspx Its a website where you can put in your leos genetics and find out what you'll get.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by rickmoss95 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:17 pm

the only thing you should NOT mix are the different strains of albino. and in my opinion, the same with snow lines...like mack snow to urban gecko snow. but im not really familiar if the gem snow is a completely different line, proven that it is NOT a mack snow...so i can not give an answer on that one. my reasons would be the same for not mixing the snow lines as the albino lines, but craig himself mixed the snow lines....but i would not do it. if you bred a super hypo tangerine carrot tail to a normal, you could get any of those traits, they are all polygenic, which means they sort of act like a co dominant gene, BUT you may or may not get a visible morph in the first generation. you would also get normals. the red stripe gene is also polygenic. so when i bred my red stripe enigma male to my patternless rainwater albino, i got red stripe enigmas, that are het for patternless and rainwater. when you breed those babies to more red stripe line animals, it will increse the intensity of the red stripe gene. the banded patternless, which is the patternless gene in RAPTORS(which stands for Ruby eyed Albino Patternless Tremper ORange) works a little different than most polygenic traits. if you breed a jungle to a jungle, you will end up with some patternless(reverse stripe patternless, NOT murphy patternless...big difference) polygenic traits are a little harder to figure out than a simple resessive or dominant genes, but they are not too bad, once you play with them a little. so to get a really nice tangerine for instance, breed a really nice tangerine to something, then breed the best tangerine babies back to the nice adult...it is linebreeding. just re~enforcing the traits you want the animals to have.
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Jordan on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:18 pm

Yes i explained its not correct to mix albino's.
OR gecko's which have lots of hets and will create messy (genetics-wise) offspring.

Breeding for example:
a raptor het patternless and blizzard with a Mack snow SHTCT Enigma Jungle. lol.
Would be a silly pairing because the offsprings genetics would be all muddled and messy.

And breeding the snows together is sort of awkward too since you lose track of what snow is what type etc. Though unlike the albino genes, the snow genes are actually compatible and can create super snows as long as the Mack gene is included.


Last edited by Jordan on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by rickmoss95 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:28 pm

oh yeah, there are different types of APTORS and RAPTORS. there are patternless RAPTORS, and banded RAPTORS. and APTORs can be patternless or jungles. some people would say a jungle APTOR is just a jungle, but that is pretty much personal preference. i have a patternless APTOR, and a jungle APTOR from the urban gecko. i have a good friend who breeds leopards, he told me that my jungle 'APTOR' is just a jungle albino, but craig at the urban gecko sold them both to me as APTORs, so i call her an APTOR. if you breed two jungles togeather, you will get jungles and what they call a striped patternless(or reverse striped, depending on who you ask). the only difference in an APTOR and a RAPTOR is the eclipse gene. in an eclipse, the eye can be partially or completely black, hence the name eclipse. in a RAPTOR the albino gene makes the solid black turn solid red. or the part that would be black in a non albino animal, some are only partially eclipsed, also called 'snake eyed'. alot of people like the solid eclipses better, but i like the snake eyed ones just as much. they are uniqe in there own way, my diablo blanco has both solid eyes, now i want one with snake eyes. and they can also have one solid eye, and one snake eye. the amount of eclipsing can also vary, from very little eclipsing, to almost solid eclipse...and then obviously the solid eclipse.
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by rickmoss95 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:31 pm

yup, jordan nailed it with the snows! i personally dont care too much for the mack super snows, i just dont like all the tiny little dots. i do like the albino super snows. the urban gecko snows are a complete domimant trait...so there is no 'super urban snow'...the trait is already in its 'dominant' form. that is why i am only gonna breed the urban line snow. i do have a mack snow blizzard, but im keeping him, because he is purple! i may breed him for the blizzard trait, and sell or give away the mack snows i produce, but i will not keep any more mack snows in my collection
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by kathstew on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:04 pm

I didn't know there was more than one line of snows, what are they?

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Mardy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:08 pm

kathstew wrote:I didn't know there was more than one line of snows, what are they?

Mack Snow
Gem Snow
TUG Snow

Unlike different strains of albinos, snows are compatible and can be mixed. But there's something to be said about a clean genetic line, but mixing is turning up some interesting results.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by kathstew on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:14 pm

Mardy wrote:
kathstew wrote:I didn't know there was more than one line of snows, what are they?
<br /><br />Mack Snow<br />Gem Snow<br />TUG Snow<br /><br />Unlike different strains of albinos, snows are compatible and can be mixed. But there's something to be said about a clean genetic line, but mixing is turning up some interesting results.

Thanks Mardy! I didn't know they were considered different lines of snow. I kinda thought they were all from the same line. This helps a lot, thanks!

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:24 pm

Wow this is interesting....and breeding should only be done after a year....correct?
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by kathstew on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:29 pm

it goes more by weight than age. People generally say min weight is about 55grams I believe.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:37 pm

man....i need a scale....does anybody know where to get a nice cheap uth?
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Mardy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:45 pm

Whether a female is ready to breed goes by quite a few factors..

Weight, they should be at least 50g, the more the better.

Health, not all geckos are meant to be bred. You could have a gecko that's got the age and minimum weight, but perhaps she doesn't eat well. Or if you have a gecko that's not gaining weight, and appears to be losing weight a bit.

Age, it's probably not healthy to use a male to breed when he's under 6 months old. They tend to reach sexual maturity after 6 months, for females it's usually 7-10 months. If you breed too early you run into high chance of infertile eggs.

Last but the most important part... the female should be ovulating before you even consider breeding her. A lot of the people miss this part because they think, "oh my female hit 55g, let's put her in with the male". If the female isn't ovulating, two things usually happen. One the female will fight the male back, causing injuries. Two, the male will attempt to mate even if she's not ready, and it could cause injuries to the female, and definitely cause a lot of stress.

As for UTH, I get mine directly from Zoo Med via Amazon. Like the medium zoo med repti therm, only $20 via Amazon. But if you try to buy this in the pet store, they'll run you almost $30.

Good luck.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:34 pm

I hear u mardy and thanks! but when do we know that a female is ovulating?
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Mardy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:59 pm

You look for a pink dot/circle in the middle of their belly. Like this.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:09 pm

ohh i dont know if any of my leos are even old enough for that yet honestly besides im pretty scared to breed
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by rickmoss95 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:10 am

elz, be sure you are prepared before you dive into breeding! there is ALOT more than people realize to breeding. i am not saying 'dont breed', just MAKE SURE you are prepared to do so, before you do. if you decide this is something you may want to try, i would be glad to help you, as im sure others would too. just do ALOT of research first...and it would honestly be better to get some experience with juvies and adults, before you try to manage a hatchling....or dozens of hatchlings Wink it is tons of fun to breed, and learn about genetics...and there is so much to learn...and play with, it will blow your mind! alot of breeders will discourage you, because they may be afraid of competition, or whatever...but i would be more than happy to help you out, with anything you need to know....as im sure others on this forum would too. just let us know. just know that there is ALOT to it, and the initial investment will be pretty high, to VERY high, depending on your original breeding group, and the equipment you will need. dont get into breeding for the money either! i started off keeping ball pythons when i was nine, and bred my first colubrids when i was twelve. i did it for the passion of the animals, as there really was not alot of money in it when i started breeding(not that it would have mattered to me, i just loved reptiles). after quite a few years, i noticed the morphs and the money they were bringing....so i invested in some higher dollar animals. my focus was changing from my passion, to the money...and after a while, it was more of a worry, and alot of work....and not much fun at all! the ball python craze, and my forgetting what this is all about, almost ruined me as far as reptiles, and my passion for them! i was spending more time in my reptile rooms than i was at my job!!! i made alot of money for a while, paying off my house, and buying a grand cherokee with cash, from snakes! ...but was it worth it...yes, and NO. the only reason i said yes, is because it taught my a HUGE lesson! i learned that the passion for the animals, and the hobby, are worth way more than ANY amount of money...to me at least! i have bred alot of cool animals, and made some great money....but it took alot of time, effort, and lessons learned. the best thing i got from it all...the lessons learned! although i am thankful for the money i made, if i had it all to do again, i would do it differently. now i am breeding the animals i actually like(no, i never really cared for ball pythons, for a few reasons) and i dont care about the money, honestly. i am NOT rich, but my wife and i both make decent money, and make a good living, and i am very thankful for that! ...i just want to produce great animals, have my animals pay for my hobby(herpoculture), and offer people the best animals out there at great prices! i was very fortunate to become friends with some of the pioneers of our hobby, including greg maxwell, the hampers, rico walder, and some others...and they helped me TREMENDOUSLY...and i honestly owe my success to them! thank you all!!! i am only buying and producing the best bloodlines out there, and that is exactly what i want to offer others, with great customer service and life long friendships! ...at GREAT prices, that anyone can afford. i dont want someone to not buy an incredible animal, because they feel they can not afford it. i will not undercut the market, because that only hurts everyone else, and i refuse to do that...but i can guarentee that nobody out there will offer the quality animals at the prices i will starting next year. and if you do decide to breed, just realize that it will take a couple years to see any real profit, as moat of the first money you make will have to go back into the collection(caging, equipt, new blood, ect.)
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by rickmoss95 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:15 am

*most of the money...sorry, not MOAT! LOL
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:42 am

thanks rick! i really appreciate your advice. as i said i love this forum as you guys really care for leos as i do and you guys are willing to help and give advice instead of down talkin people. but im not in it for the money...i mean if thats what my gf decides to do thats on her but i just would really like to see what type of babies my leos would make as i think they are so beautiful. i dont have any RARE leos just normal ones....im not into spending 800 just for a leo to breed i just want to have fun doing this. but yes please by any means help me if u can i will really appreciate it. I dont even know what sex my leos are yet lol or when they were born! my leos actually come in my hand when i put it in the tank willingly...basically running to my hand...and when they see the tongs come in they just start snipping at and immediately lol i love it. but yes rick i want to breed my leos but im scared too. and all of this enigma stuff im reading im still kind of confused about what those are so please explain. and i go through the same thing...my girlfriend works all day and i work all night so all day im playing modern warfare 3 cleaning and reading up on my leos and taking care of them.
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by rickmoss95 on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:01 am

i have modern warefare 3!!! if you have an xbox 360 send me a friend request! snakedoktor6 is my gamertag!!! enigmas have a neurological defect, some have issues and some dont show any. the issues can be stargazing(staring into space), bad aim when hunting, spinning in circles when stressed, and even acting drunk. i have six enigmas, and i absolutely LOVE them. the positives of enigmas are really cool and enhanced body and eye colors, and AWESOME personallities! neither of my adults show ANY negative signs, no spinning, no stargazing, nothing. my babies all would spin once in a while when stressed, but as they got a little older, they have completely stopped, and show no other signs(and they are only two months old). most enigmas will show signs more when stressed. but craig, the owner of the urban gecko, seems to have something figured out, as outcrossing them seems to lessen the issues. i will know more next year, as i should produce alot of baby enigmas! i love them! ...i will always have enigmas in my collection!
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:10 am

lol aww man i play ps3! lol my k.d is 1.45! but yes rick is there anyway i can contact u to talk more about the breeding? so we can get a little more in depth?
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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Mardy on Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:56 am

Please avoid breeding enigmas as a first time breeder. It's hard enough to own one as a pet. To breed enigmas, you have to be prepared to cull quite a few problematic babies.

I personally don't believe in symptom-free enigmas, as the enigma syndrome can kick in at anytime. Female enigmas are known to get worse during ovulation & breeding season. Enigmas can also stop eating at anytime, which is something breeders don't usually tell you. It's one of those things that are debated as there are pro-enigma breeders and those against breeding geckos with known neurological disorders.

So since you are new to leopard geckos, my advice is to stay away from breeding enigmas.

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Re: Urban Gecko Question...

Post by Elz on Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:37 am

how do u get an enigma?
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