Possible diarrhea? Parasite?

I was asked to move this to a new post and add the care information below:

Ok, he might have diarrhea. Although I'm not sure. The first time he pooped on the first day it was dark colored and very small. Now it is lighter colored and I can see what appear to be "shells" from meal worms in it. It's somewhat liquidy. He isn't using the litter box, but instead the entire cool side of the tank. He even pooped on the top of his moist hide. I'm not too concerned with where he's going for now, though.

Does this sound like cause for concern? Maybe a parasite and that could also explain why he's so thin? Should I take a stool sample to the vet?

I'm going to try to find some smaller meal worms or crickets tonight in an attempt to get him to eat. I'm freaked out now because I looked up some videos on youtube and all the leos that were as young and thin as mine ended up dying if you read the comments. Sad

About your leo:
- Sex - unknown
- Age & Weight - under 3 months, underweight/thin
- Morph (if you know) - high yellow, possible hypo
- How long have you owned your leo - 4 days
- Where was he/she obtained (Pet store, breeder, wild caught, etc.) - I got him from an individual who posted him on Craigslist who was not caring for him properly for 1 week prior to my obtaining him. He was in a 5 gallon tank with a heat rock and no hides or substrate, and being fed can 'o crickets.
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred - to my knowledge he is captive bred, likely purchased from a pet store.

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo - haven't yet
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how - unknown
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. - unknown
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal - the first day when he pooped it was dark and firm, the last few days it has been lighter (burnt sienna if anyone paints, lol) with "shell" fragments in it. It isn't entirely liquid, but "looser" than before.
- When was the last time he/she went - sometime this afternoon
C) Problem: Possible diarrhea (I'm not certain how to tell) and lack of appetite, although I've only had him for 4 days, so the appetite problem might just be settling in.

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size - 10 gallons
- Type (ex. glass tank, screen enclosure, tub kept) - glass tank with screen lid
- Type of substrate (sand, vinyl tiles, ceramic/stone tiles, etc.) - paper towels
- Hides (how many, location and type (hothide, humid hide, regular hide etc.) - hot hide on left, cool hide on right, moist hide on right.
B) Heating
- What is your main heat source (heat bulbs, under tank heat mat etc) **Please include the brand and size of your UTH if you use one** - Zoo Med Reptitherm, size small (10-20 gallon tanks)
- What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side) - Hot=94 F, cool=70 F
- Method of regulating your heat source (thermostat, rheostat, light dimmer etc.) - light dimmer
- What are you using to measure your temps (probe thermometer, infrared lazer tempo gun, stick on temp gauge, etc) - probe thermometer on hot side, aquarium thermometer (set on floor of tank) on cool side
- Do you have any lights (describe type and cycle duration) - Small desk lamp beside tank, turned on at dawn and off at dusk.
C) Cage mates - none

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding - gut loaded meal worms coated in leopard gecko dust multivitamin
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding? - twice in the morning, twice at night. He isn't eating, though.
- How are you feeding (hand fed, tongs/tweezers, left in dish, ect) - hand feeding with tweezers, a few times I have left them in the bowl afterwards and some have disappeared, but all but a few were later found.
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using (please include brand) - T-Rex/Replashy Leopard Gecko calcium plus
- What multi vitimin are you using (please include brand) - ^^ same
-How are you implimenting your suppliment program (how often do you dust with each suppliment, do you leave calcium in the tank 24/7 etc.) - dusting all feeders
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with - Fluker's high calcium gut loader along with potato, grape, apple, carrot (so far).

Ok... everything you're doing is right on track ecxept 1 thing botheres me... well 2... first the moist hide should be a warm hide imo (topic of debate).. point of a humid hide... humid is warm and moist. Also warm moist air leeching into your viv thru the warming process helps maintain the humidity levels in your viv.

The only other thing I saw was you're gutloading with grapes... grapes are toxic to dogs because of chemials emited thru digestion pocesses. It kills the kidneys. I can't imagine ingesting thad for a leo eating that grape feeding bug would be to aggreeable to the leos system. Might not kill 'em but could certainly cause gi distress.

What I would do is eliminate the grapes as a gutload. Use just natural foods to gutload (I'd get rid of the flukers gutload too. You're using a good suppliment) since the new food in in your worms within 48 hours (old stuff gone new suff goin thru the gi with no grape exposure) I'd withold feeding for 1 day. Then offer 1 meal after sunset to your leo. It's more in line with their natural feeding/hunting instincts.

I also think you might be feeding too many times a day. Offer food once a day so that you can establish a schedule and the leo eats a hearty meal insted of possibly becoming a picky eater because of all the stress the multipul intrsions could cause esp. During this settling in period where interaction should be limited. Try tong feeding a couple times, if not successful after 3rd attempt leave a dish in the viv for a few hours. Turn all the lights off where the leo is and make it nice and peaceful for him. Cover his tank with a dark towel if you have to. Make sure to count how mant you offer. I wouldn't put more than 4 in a dish they can move but not escape from. Check back in an hour to see if he ate, if he did quiet as possible add 4 more to the dish... lather rinse repeat each hour until he isn't eaten them all. Remove the dish and let him be.

The foul stool could be goin from can o crickets to proper food (takes a good 2 weeks for the gut to adjust to such dramatic diet changes esp if he wasn't eating the right food. A certain degree of gi stasis could happen during that improper feeding time) now that hs eating proper gi motility is restarting, regulatng, and relearning how to use real food. Some foul stool would be expected. I recon what you might be seeing aside of some mealie shell is left over can o crickets. This scenario is where I'm placing my money.

Parasites is possible but not as likely since his diet was freeze dried food. Parasites wouldn't survive that process but if he ate infected crix at the petstore it could be possible. I think doing a fecal right now is premature but you certainly can if it would make you feel better.

This could also be from settling in stress. Lil dude has a lot of new goin on that could certainly be stressing him out.

So that's my thoughts on it. I hope some of this rambling was helpful

It didn't sound like rambling at all. I wanted answers for ALL of that, lol. I work from home so sometimes I get in the habit of sitting around worrying about my pets all day while I work on the computer. It gets to be maddening, especially with this guy who didn't start out so well and is so thin.

I'll quit it with the grapes and start feeding fewer times a day. I used to grape on the first day, so it should be out of their systems by now. I'll move the moist hide to the warm side as well. I actually had it on the cool side based on another care sheet somewhere (I don't think the one on here specifies a side for the moist hide) but I'm starting to discover a LOT of contradictions in different care sheets on the web.

I will say my feeding schedule was based on advice I had gotten in that original thread, but I'm going to assume it was given based upon the minimal information I provided there and people's own experiences that are turning out to be different than what I'm dealing with now.

Glad it was helpful. I think I did mention in my proper housing thread that it was to be a warm moist hide. I'll go double check on that.

I went out and got some smaller mealworms today and it makes me think that might have been part of the problem. I was feeding "regular" mealworms and I got "mini" ones. They are extremely small and make the ones I had look like giant killer millipedes. He probably doesn't need ones quite that small, but seeing them made me think twice about the size of the ones I had before. What's the guideline--nothing larger than half of the gecko's head? How would you judge that with worms? Would it be no thicker than the size of the head or no larger than half of the head when curled up? Does my question even make sense, lol?

Anyway, I left 12 tiny mealworms for him tonight. I hope at least most of them are gone in the morning!

The rule is nothing wider around than the space between his eyes. I honestly think leaving 12 in there might be a bit much honestly. That amount at 1 time might be intimidating if you're worried it might be the size of the feeder. Also it might be harder for him to zero in and focus on one to snag. Hopefully the smaller size is more appealing. after can o crickets live prey is going to take a lil getting use to.

I guess I just figured 12 would be good portion-wise because they are so itty-bitty, but you're probably right that there might be too many wriggling around in there at once.

I'm starting to think I should just get him a can 'o crickets, jeez! (Just kidding, I wouldn't feed that.)

Yes I had suggested a few feedings a day to get his weight going up. So that was me and I still believe it is a good suggestion but if you wish to witch to once a day, that is not a problem. Really, it is your personal preference. Each person does things their own way. I found it worked for mine, maybe it does not work for yours .

Hope he is feeling better and his poop settles itself out!

Well, he didn't eat any of the worms I left out last night (after attempting to hand feed him). This is the start of day 5.

Might be an idea to try different feeders to get him interested.

I'm thinking about going to get some waxworms or crickets.

I did realize today that the room he is in is right next the bathroom, and flushing toilet/shower sounds could be stressing him out. So I moved him to a quieter place. The new area gets less foot traffic as well and is up higher. I also put a black shirt as a temporary background so make it feel more secure in there.

Also, his defecations today were sort of very light yellow/white. I assume this is the urate only because he has been drinking but not eating.

That all depends. Could be mostly urate, could also be a shed poo. Has he shed recently that you know of. Good that he's in a quieter place, that can only help. 5 days without food doesn't quieter me too much but I would consider another feeder to see if that stimulates him more. As much as i hate suggesting crix it might be worth a shot since that's the smell he associates with food even if it was can o crix.

I haven't seen any signs of recent shed (aside from the white poop) but that doesn't necessarily mean he hasn't shed during the night or in hiding. If he did it was a good shed because I have seen no evidence of it.

When I get off work at 7 I have to go take my cat back to her original owner (my boyfriend developed extremely severe allergies after having her for almost a year and I told the person we adopted her from and she's taking her back. Anyway, I'm sad about it so the combination of losing her and dealing with a possibly sickly geck is kind of putting me on edge...) so on the way home we'll swing by the pet store and pick up some different feeders.

Do you really think he developed a taste for those can 'o crickets enough to turn him off other foods? Are they like commonly "addictive" like wax worms or something?

No I highly doubt that they are addictive like waxies are but it is the only food source he has known since he was a wee one so introducing another different non-cricket feeder could pose a little problem until he realizes that it is eatable and good. At least with offering a live cricket in substititution for the can o crix it at least should have some of the same smell and that should be appealing to him. (I'm hoping).

I got to the pet store last night close to closing time and they didn't have any pre-measured bags of small crickets left. I didn't want to make them go get them for me with only a couple minutes left till closing.

I got waxworms though, and he doesn't seem interested in them. If he doesn't eat some crickets tonight I am going to look into force-feeding methods. I know you say a week without food is no biggie but he looks extremely thin to me, so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to be concerned. What I have been reading suggests that once they get past a certain point they will no longer have an appetite until they gain some weight and get healthier.

He has had several white/yellow bowel movements in the past few days and no normal poops to speak of.

Would you say the advice in this thread is sensical?
***LINK REMOVED BY JORDAN (feel free to contact me as to why this was removed)***
Also, this video shows the method I am thinking about trying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wjanD9JyOE

Okay, i understand why your concerned yes.

If it does come to force feeding/assist feeding, i have some safe, friendly and (not completely) stress free methods.

Can you tell me about your feeding methods? I might not do it for a couple days, but I'd like to learn about it now.

I imagine something like this where you make a nutritious "milk shake", then slowly drop it on the gecko's nose for them to lick off would be minimally stressful. I need to work on handling him, though, if I'm going to be able to do this.

http://www.goldengategeckos.com/info.html

Well I have a quick update. He hasn't eaten anything on his own yet, so I made up a mixture of plain yogurt, pedialyte, mashed baby squash and a tiny bit of multivitamin powder. I was able to get him to lick a bit of it off of his nose, but we couldn't really get him to open his mouth wide enough to give him any significant amount. I haven't decided if I'm going to do this morning and night (because he gets so little each time) or just at night.

The good news is he tolerated being held for the first time very well. He only tried to bolt if something touched his back (me petting him...bad idea for now) and I found it's not that difficult to keep away from his tail as I thought it would be. I was kind of paranoid I'd try to grab him and pull it off accidentally or something. I guess that's just first time gecko-owner jitters.

I might also try to the golden gate gecko slushy recipe, but I'm kind of leery about grinding up worms in the food processor. It would probably be way more nutritious though...

Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I'm kind of shooting in the dark right now, but I'm doing my best to keep this little guy going.

EDIT: Btw, it looks like his skin is getting sort of...looser. Like around his arms it sort of wrinkles up in a way I didn't notice before. Does that commonly happen when leos get ready to shed, or is it possibly a consequence of his weight loss?

The wrinkly skin could be from dehydration or weight loss or even if he's fixin to shed. I do.t agree with using a veggie/fruit based szlurry with an insectavorous lizard as it is difficult for them to digest. You really do need to use th smashed up bugs... it will give him the taste he should be having (ie bugs) and won't be as harsh on his system. Leos aren't designed like cresties to properly digest and utelize plant matter. I would soak him also to help him rehydrate and yeah any time you touch those bumps on their backs (tuberxles? Gotta check my spellikng on that one) they get defensive. Those are like a preditor early warning systtem and triggers a flight response.

Ok, I'm going to amend the golden gate gecko's recipe to make it cheaper as follows:

Original:
1 small can Hill's A/D pet food (available at most vets)
1 jar baby food squash
¼ cup Ensure (not chocolate)
¼ cup Pedialite
Contents of 2 capsules Milk Thistle (herbal supplement, liver purifier, found at most drug stores)
¼ tsp. each calcium powder and herp vitamin powder
3-5 X-large handfuls of mealworms, added slowly while mixture is blending, until consistency of milkshake

New:
1 Small can of dog/cat food
1 jar baby food squash
1/4 cup plain yogurt
1/4 cup pedialite (generic brand)
1/2 tsp all-in-one vitamin powder
50 normal sized mealworms

Hopefully that will be sufficient. My boyfriend is pissed about me putting bugs in the food processor, but he'll have to get over it.

So I made the "milkshake" and I have to say it was one of the most disgusting experiences of my entire life. Just yuck. He better enjoy it!!

I'm having a really hard time force feeding him. He only gets a few drops each time (morning and night) because I can't get him to open his mouth all the way to shoot it in (I know this isn't a preferred method) and he doesn't eagerly lick the mixture off of his nose. I've been doing this and soaking him for a couple of minutes morning and night, but he shows no signs of being more eager to eat on his own.

I'm setting up an appointment with our exotic vet, but I feel like it's already too late and he's just too far gone. And it about 35 minutes away and I worry about the trip stressing him out even more and making it worse. I have no fecal samples to provide, all of his defecations have been white and soaked into the paper towel. So I don't even know if they'd be able to identify what's wrong with him.

The only exotics vet around here specializes in birds, and I brought a young painted turtle in to them with a respiratory infection once and he seemed unfamiliar with turtle care. He looked up the symptoms I gave him on a sheet of paper and seemed to "take my word for it" that it was a respiratory infection. He told me to inject the antibiotic between the legs both in the front and the back and I later found out that it was VERY dangerous to inject in the back and I could have damaged his internal organs. The turtle didn't make it. I didn't even get all the way through the antibiotics and he died terrified of me--the lady who liked to stab him in the arm every 3 days... Anyway I have reason to question the vet's qualifications with reptiles. But I haven't been able to find another vet in the area.

As you can see I'm feeling really down about this today. I know he was already in a bad situation, but part of me just wishes I had gotten a nice healthy lizard from a breeder instead. If he doesn't make it I don't know if I have it in my to try again. It's also really heartbreaking because he's basically hand tame now...just a really friendly little dude. I just wish he would eat.

I'm sorry you're having so many problems with your little dude... but I you do lose him I really hope you don't quit on leos altogether... this was not a prime intrduction into leos. Are you still offering live feeders on a regular basis on top of the slurry? I would. Lso I would leave a small capful of the bug slurry minus the yogurt and baby food squash in a cap in his viv for a few days (be sure to refresh it daily). Yogurt is only providing probiotics at the moment and honestly the dairy in it is hard on your leo and herps can't digest or breakdown lactose. And as mentioned previously they aren't fruit eaters either so they're not set up to digest and process fruit/veggie matter which is why he could be refusing the slurry. Also if you're using flax seed like is suggested that tasts very bitter which could be puttng him off. I would just use the bugs, the vit suppliment, a drop of corn syrup. The glucosse in the corn syroup will give him a boost, hopefully pick up his appetite and activity. Soak him for atleast 15 minutes once a day to aide with hydration.

Now on a little different note and id like to be honest with ya here... I think you jumped into the slurry too fast. You barely had him 3 days and started to worry, he never had a chance to really settle in before stressing him with handfeeding. I think you need to slow down and back up a little bit. Think minimalist here. I would give 24 hours where you don't pester him at all... then the next day at sunset. Try to offer live food... if he doesn't eat live try a couple drops of the modified slurry on the tip of his nose. I think the corn syrup will entice him to eat more. Even if he only takes a little its only going to take a little to keep him alive. He'll die faster from stress than he will starvation as long as he's eating a little. You gotta kinda coast a little with the modified slurry and leaving live food so the stress can cme down. What you see as nicely hand tame could just be utter and complete submision from stress od.

After feeding him, soak him for 15 minutes in a nice warm bath. He may poo he may not, but if he's producing urates he's not horribly dehydrated. After his soak put him back in his viv (id be keeping it a bit warmer too like 96*F), coer him and leave him alone until tomoro evening and repeat the feedng/soaking process... cover, let alone till next evening ad so on for about 3 days. After that leave him alone again a full 24 hours nothing in his tank but water then at sunset the next day offer live feeders in his viv handfeeding by dropping them in front of him from above.

So your schedule starting tomoro should be
Monday- don't bother him at all until Tuesday after sunset.
Tuesday- start using the modified slurry and start new feeding regimin. Offer live first, then a few dsrops of slurry then soak and put to bed. Leave a capful of slurry and a dish of a few mealies in the viv with him.
Wednesday- same as Tuesday
Thursday- same as tues
Friday -remove his food dishes in the morning but don't disturb him. leave him alone like you did Monday then Saturday after sunset offer only live bugs.
Saturday- after sunset offer live bugs handfed as described earlier. Don't leave slurry or feeders in the tank.
Sunday- offer live feeders after sunset. Do not leave slurry or mealies in the tank. Also if you could post a currrent picture of him that would help.

I really hope you can pull him thru this but we gotta get stress levels down. Hope some of this helps. We use a similar corn syrup booster with baby rabbits and pups when they fade a little and it really helps. There's also a premade mix for mammals called bounce back that is very similar. You might also want to consider a feeding stimulant like rept-aide to se if you can boost that appetite a little. You can administer it after the slurry and before the bath

If by next Monday you're not seeing improvement with the new destressing protocol, if he still isn't eating live prey make the vet appointment and start this process all over again. Right now we don't know if his issues now are stress or illness at least we can eliminate stress (esp since your vet doesn't seem the brightest bulb in the box) with this protocol and. Narrow down possible health problems.

Thank you for addressing this. I will say that I didn't start the slurry until 1 week had passed and he was noticeably losing weight. But I'll follow all your advice and schedule and report back.

I have been offering live food every day in his dish. There's no flax seed in the slurry but there is yogurt and squash, so I'll make up a new one with mealies and corn syrup. That's going to be extra disgusting to make, but I'll get through it, lol.

Picture taking the morning of 5/23/2011

This was the best shot I could get without disturbing him. Yes, he is sleeping with two feet in his water bowl and his back leg up in the uncomfortable-looking position, lol. He has been more willing to come out in the last couple of days...probably because of moving the tank to a quieter spot and because I've started covering the front and back of the tank with dark cloth to make him feel less vulnerable.

Compared to picture taken 5/14/2011

They aren't from the same angle. so I don't know how helpful they will be for comparison. But you can really see thos hip bones in the 5/23 shot...

So I was just about to make the mealworm/corn syrup slurry but when I opened the container or worms the carrot I had in there was moldy! It had only been in there for two days.

Anyway, I'm going to use the old slurry until I can get some more worms. If I change out their substrate can I wait a few days and still use them, or do I need to throw them out now that they've probably eaten mold?

He's been sleeping outside of his cave all day now. I'm not sure if it's because he's getting weaker or something, or if he's just more secure now that I started covering the tank on the front and back with cloth. The skin around his belly is getting wrinklier.