Questions..

Okay, since I screwed up and am going to not do that again, I have to ask a ton of questions so I can get myself turned the right way and get started reading before I try this breeding stuff again.
I think the geckos that my partner has are more to the same genes than my guy is. As said in the other post I have a Super Snow Enigma Het for Bell, and I dig him a lot, but need to figure out what could pair with him PROPERLY to where I am not the dumbass screwing up genetics. I dont plan on breeding him again until I seriously read and look up all the genetics and do's and dont's of breeding these.
I just need something to start with (reading wise) on figuring out pairings and things I would rather strive to breed to better that morph and possibly make a new one.
I personally am more interested right now in the lighter gecko morphs, and would love to use my guy if possible to make something nice.
Any ideas? Now please keep in my I am trying to learn and he wont be put with any female again until I feel confident I am doing everything right, but for him what would work the best? Or what morphs could I,create by pairing him with X, Y, or Z?
I am going to post a link to a picture of him in a second.

Hello
I'm new to the breeding world as well. I'm gonna be breeding my snowglows (picture of the female is my avatar). The information I'm giving you is info I've learned during my own research.

Have you read up on the enigma syndrome? From my understanding its not recommended to breed leos with bad enigma syndrome. If your enigma has strong enigma syndrome I don't think you should breed him, as it can be passed on to the offspring. Its generally not recommended to breed enigmas as your first breeding project because of the enigma syndrome. Even if the leo being bred doesn't show signs of enigma syndrome, the stress of breeding can trigger the enigma syndrome. I also think that breeding enigmas makes the cull rate higher (not positive on this though).

Next, when breeding enigmas, its not recommended to breed enigma to an enigma. So I would find a female that isn't enigma.
I would look for a super snow, or super snow het bell.
With a super snow you would get 50% super snow enigmas
and 50%super snow enigmas het bell
With a super snow bell you would get 50% super snow enigmas het bells
and 50% super snow enigma bells.

Here is a good link on the genetics: http://vmsherp.com/LCLeopardNames.htm

Quick word: You've already been warned about the albinos. Don't mix the albino strains (there are three - tremper, rainwater and bell). Another thing is not to mix the snow strains. Mixing the snow strains isn't as frowned upon as mixing the albino strains, but for a beginner I wouldn't recommend it. There are three snow strains - TUG, GEM and Mack.

Rain water is also referred to as las vegas, 2 different developer. Also playing around with a morph calculator will help you get a better understanding of what the outcome will be from certain morph crosses. Your leo def. shoes bell traits with the chocolate spotting. Bells are prettier imo than some of the other albino strains, and every leo has some albino strain in their foundation stock. Always ask what albino strain is in the mate to avoid potential muddying the genetic pool. If the person who had the mate doesn't know then don't breed with that leo. Once your better at morphology you can tell what markers to look for to help identify the differences between the albino strain. Once you have a good understanding of morphology you'll be able to answer your own question of what to breed together. You have lots of reading ahead of you I can't post links seeing as how I'm doing this on my phone and all my links are on my pc. The forum has started some good morph guides.

To be honest i think a great pairing for that gecko for you would simply be a plain Bell Albino.

You'll create:
- Bell Albino's
- Mack Snow Bell Albino's
- Mack Snow Enigma Bell Albino's
- Mack Snows
- Mack Snow Enigma's
- Bell Albino's Enigmas.
- Enigma's.

So all them possibilities just from a simple Bell Albino

another thing to do to prove or disprove albino strains is by breeding the animal in question with visual albino strains(unless you know you animal IS het for something)....so if you think your animal is a possible het tremper, breed it to a visible tremper albino, if you get an albino, you know for sure the animal in question is a het. the guy who bought the first rainwater albinos from tim rainwater(the guy who first produced them, hence the name 'rainwater' albino) bred his rainwaters to het trempers to see if they were different, he got no visual albino babies, so he bred it to a visible tremper, and still got no albinos, proving that this was a new strain of albino....this is obviously frowned upon, but there is NO other way to see if the rainwater albino was a different strain. the same thing was done with the bell albino....the three albino strains in leopard geckos are all T positive albinos. the "T" stands for tyrosinase, which is a chemical in the body that allows the melanins (black pigments) to show through. so in snakes, you usually see T negative albinos....T positives are usually alot more expensive in snakes, the blood python is the exeption, most "albino" bloods are t positive, they can go for around 300, where the t negative bloods are over three thousand in most cases! i cant wait untill someone produces a t negative albino leopard gecko!!i dont want to hijack this tread more than i already have, sorry, but maybe i will make a post in the genetics as a seperate post later....

kathstew wrote:
Have you read up on the enigma syndrome? From my understanding its not recommended to breed leos with bad enigma syndrome. If your enigma has strong enigma syndrome I don't think you should breed him, as it can be passed on to the offspring. Its generally not recommended to breed enigmas as your first breeding project because of the enigma syndrome. Even if the leo being bred doesn't show signs of enigma syndrome, the stress of breeding can trigger the enigma syndrome. I also think that breeding enigmas makes the cull rate higher (not positive on this though).

Yes I have read up on enigma syndrome, and mine doesnt show any signs of it as of now. I would never breed him (nor bought him) if he had that even a less severe case. I am stern when it comes to producing animals with defects that inhibit natural-ish life.
Again with the dogs lol being the owner of a blue American Bully, and being a avid APBT/AmBully person I see all to often people breeding their dogs with horrible blue dog problems and just compounding the issues by breeding problem dog to problem dog. Even though they arent to bad apart, bred together you compound and screw them up even more.

Next, when breeding enigmas, its not recommended to breed enigma to an enigma. So I would find a female that isn't enigma.
I would look for a super snow, or super snow het bell.
With a super snow you would get 50% super snow enigmas
and 50%super snow enigmas het bell
With a super snow bell you would get 50% super snow enigmas het bells
and 50% super snow enigma bells.

I second that. Same how I would never breed a blue to blue, or a merle to merle, screws things up bad.

Here is a good link on the genetics: http://vmsherp.com/LCLeopardNames.htm

Quick word: You've already been warned about the albinos. Don't mix the albino strains (there are three - tremper, rainwater and bell). Another thing is not to mix the snow strains. Mixing the snow strains isn't as frowned upon as mixing the albino strains, but for a beginner I wouldn't recommend it. There are three snow strains - TUG, GEM and Mack.

About the Albinos lol I feel so dumb having not asked about that before hand. Learning though! lol I yell at people like me all the time for breeding dogs/birds when they shouldnt, of course I have to be "that dumbass" when it comes to these lol

Kermit wrote:Rain water is also referred to as las vegas, 2 different developer. Also playing around with a morph calculator will help you get a better understanding of what the outcome will be from certain morph crosses. Your leo def. shoes bell traits with the chocolate spotting. Bells are prettier imo than some of the other albino strains, and every leo has some albino strain in their foundation stock. Always ask what albino strain is in the mate to avoid potential muddying the genetic pool. If the person who had the mate doesn't know then don't breed with that leo. Once your better at morphology you can tell what markers to look for to help identify the differences between the albino strain. Once you have a good understanding of morphology you'll be able to answer your own question of what to breed together. You have lots of reading ahead of you I can't post links seeing as how I'm doing this on my phone and all my links are on my pc. The forum has started some good morph guides.

Yea I have been messing around on the morph calculators today, and when I got my dumb idea to breed these two lol it should have told me not to damn it!
I will keep that in mind next time I purchase one. I might even go back to my breeder and see what he has available.

Jordan wrote:To be honest i think a great pairing for that gecko for you would simply be a plain Bell Albino.

You'll create:
- Bell Albino's
- Mack Snow Bell Albino's
- Mack Snow Enigma Bell Albino's
- Mack Snows
- Mack Snow Enigma's
- Bell Albino's Enigmas.
- Enigma's.

So all them possibilities just from a simple Bell Albino

NICE! Thank you so much for that! I was looking at Bell Albinos at the show but didnt get one :/ I think that will be my next buy, after I read some more.

I dont know why it made all the quotes in separate posts? Quick question, so I dont have to post a new thread again, would a Lavender Jungle Bell be okay to breed with the one I have? Also what about a Cream Het Bell?
My breeder has these two as female and I wanted to ask, then morph cal, then read before I even think about buying another gecko..

pookie! wrote:I dont know why it made all the quotes in separate posts? Quick question, so I dont have to post a new thread again, would a Lavender Jungle Bell be okay to breed with the one I have? Also what about a Cream Het Bell?
My breeder has these two as female and I wanted to ask, then morph cal, then read before I even think about buying another gecko..

a Lavendar Jungle Bell would be good. As it would mean you would have all the same outcomes as mentioned in my previous post, but some of the offspring will also have jungle patterning.

Never heard of a Cream though, i think he is having you on

pookie! wrote:

kathstew wrote:
Have you read up on the enigma syndrome? From my understanding its not recommended to breed leos with bad enigma syndrome. If your enigma has strong enigma syndrome I don't think you should breed him, as it can be passed on to the offspring. Its generally not recommended to breed enigmas as your first breeding project because of the enigma syndrome. Even if the leo being bred doesn't show signs of enigma syndrome, the stress of breeding can trigger the enigma syndrome. I also think that breeding enigmas makes the cull rate higher (not positive on this though).

Yes I have read up on enigma syndrome, and mine doesnt show any signs of it as of now. I would never breed him (nor bought him) if he had that even a less severe case. I am stern when it comes to producing animals with defects that inhibit natural-ish life.
Again with the dogs lol being the owner of a blue American Bully, and being a avid APBT/AmBully person I see all to often people breeding their dogs with horrible blue dog problems and just compounding the issues by breeding problem dog to problem dog. Even though they arent to bad apart, bred together you compound and screw them up even more.

Next, when breeding enigmas, its not recommended to breed enigma to an enigma. So I would find a female that isn't enigma.
I would look for a super snow, or super snow het bell.
With a super snow you would get 50% super snow enigmas
and 50%super snow enigmas het bell
With a super snow bell you would get 50% super snow enigmas het bells
and 50% super snow enigma bells.

I second that. Same how I would never breed a blue to blue, or a merle to merle, screws things up bad.

Here is a good link on the genetics: http://vmsherp.com/LCLeopardNames.htm

Quick word: You've already been warned about the albinos. Don't mix the albino strains (there are three - tremper, rainwater and bell). Another thing is not to mix the snow strains. Mixing the snow strains isn't as frowned upon as mixing the albino strains, but for a beginner I wouldn't recommend it. There are three snow strains - TUG, GEM and Mack.

About the Albinos lol I feel so dumb having not asked about that before hand. Learning though! lol I yell at people like me all the time for breeding dogs/birds when they shouldnt, of course I have to be "that dumbass" when it comes to these lol

Good for you! A lot of people don't have those kind of breeding standards.
I'm glad you can compare the dogs to the leos, it makes it easier to learn for you. I'm learning everything from scratch xD

You shouldn't feel dumb! When I first started with leos, I didn't know there were different albino strains, nevermind not crossing them. Heck, I didn't even know about the different morphs! :P Its willing to admit you made a mistake that is something you should be proud of.

Please understand there's no such thing as an enigma without the genetic defects. If you have an enigma, it has the enigma gene that can trigger the syndrome at anytime. The disorder can show up at anytime in the enigma's life, and often it's triggered by stress such as being moved, being bred, or even small things such as bright light. Most people are not ready to care for enigmas, especially when they all of a sudden refuse to eat later on in its life.

There are currently only a small select few breeders that are breeding enigmas in an attempt to "breed out" the genetic defects. So far they have no success, and nothing scientific to show that they could cross the genetic defects out of enigmas. Majority of the breeders that breed enigmas are doing so only because "they look pretty".

If you are stern when it comes to producing animals with defects, I would highly recommend not breeding enigmas. There are tons of other leopard gecko genetics that you can breed, enhance, and make them your own. In my opinion enigmas are only still around because the market drives them. People do sell them because they look pretty, and they do, they are color enhancers. Unfortunately folks that buy enigmas are usually not well versed on enigma syndrome and the fact that these symptoms can show up at anytime in the gecko's life.

So here's my vote on not furthering & producing a genetic line that has well known and proven genetic disorders.

Jordan wrote:
a Lavendar Jungle Bell would be good. As it would mean you would have all the same outcomes as mentioned in my previous post, but some of the offspring will also have jungle patterning.

Never heard of a Cream though, i think he is having you on

Cool. I would rather get one from close than ship one in. Maybe, I will show a picture of it, he might have just abbreviated a name or something assume people know..



Look familiar?

kathstew wrote:

Good for you! A lot of people don't have those kind of breeding standards.
I'm glad you can compare the dogs to the leos, it makes it easier to learn for you. I'm learning everything from scratch xD

You shouldn't feel dumb! When I first started with leos, I didn't know there were different albino strains, nevermind not crossing them. Heck, I didn't even know about the different morphs! :P Its willing to admit you made a mistake that is something you should be proud of.

Yea it does help a little, but like said its a learning curve coming from one species to another lol

I didnt know there were so many morphs! I went with my friend who is breeding ball pythons to a reptile show, not really thinking we were going to get into this venture lol Hell I was planning on getting a male BP to keep as a co-ownership for her until some females got big enough.

I do make it a point to try and find a forum for my ventures, it really helps when I have questions because there are tons of people online who have been doing it for much longer than me!

Mardy wrote:Please understand there's no such thing as an enigma without the genetic defects. If you have an enigma, it has the enigma gene that can trigger the syndrome at anytime. The disorder can show up at anytime in the enigma's life, and often it's triggered by stress such as being moved, being bred, or even small things such as bright light. Most people are not ready to care for enigmas, especially when they all of a sudden refuse to eat later on in its life.

There are currently only a small select few breeders that are breeding enigmas in an attempt to "breed out" the genetic defects. So far they have no success, and nothing scientific to show that they could cross the genetic defects out of enigmas. Majority of the breeders that breed enigmas are doing so only because "they look pretty".

If you are stern when it comes to producing animals with defects, I would highly recommend not breeding enigmas. There are tons of other leopard gecko genetics that you can breed, enhance, and make them your own. In my opinion enigmas are only still around because the market drives them. People do sell them because they look pretty, and they do, they are color enhancers. Unfortunately folks that buy enigmas are usually not well versed on enigma syndrome and the fact that these symptoms can show up at anytime in the gecko's life.

So here's my vote on not furthering & producing a genetic line that has well known and proven genetic disorders.

I understand that, but even after being at a show for 2+ days, moved into a new tub, next day new tank, being messed with and taken out he hasnt shown any of the signs. I know its possible for him to just show it at some time, but as of now he hasnt.
I have a thing with my "pets", no matter what happens with or to them they are in my home forever. So just because he might or might not show a problem doesnt mean I will just dump him or put him down. Ive never had a gecko (other than the wild ones in AZ) and so far he is my buddy, and if he gets sick with the syndrome so what? He is still my buddy and I have spent thousands on animals before to help them live to the best of their ability until it comes that time, and he wont be any different.
I am not going to breed him to another enigma, I dont think thats right. But never breeding him, probably not going to happen UNLESS he starts showing signs of having an issue.
I dont see a problem with breeding him to other types, not enigmas though. He is a healthy happy guy and I just dont see why he cant be used for something.

i have to disagree about nobody having success as far as breeding the issues out of the enigmas. craig at the urban gecko has done a wonderful job outcrossing the issues out. he will not sell an enigma that shows any signs of the syndrome. i have six enigmas at this time, and not one has an issue, at all. i got both adults from him, and all of my babies are obvioulsy from those lines. i even test bred my enigmas togeather to 'test breed' and see what the outcome would be. a couple of my babies would spin when stressed when they were hatchlings, but not a single one has spun since they were a couple weeks old...not even the baby from enigma to enigma. none of my animals show any other issues like star gazing or missing food either. i have talked to matt baronak about this as well. matt is the one who has done the most work with the white and yellows, and the marble eyes in the united states, and has bred thousands and thousands of leopards. he also did a ton of research and breedings with enigmas. he told me his findings were this....

if you outcross the lines, the syndrome decreased DRAMATICALLY, and some NEVER show any issues. although like mardy said, EVERY enigma has the possibility of having issues. the second thing matt told me was this; the more clutches you get from an enigma, the worse it gets....meaning babies from, say a fifth clucth are more likely to show issues, than babies from the first couple to few clutches.

i am going to be doing alot of test breeding myself, and i am confident that by strong outcrossing, we can reduse this alot, but maybe not totally. the same thing happened with motley boas and spider ball pythons, as well as jaguar carpet pythons...when these morphs were first produced, almost all were affected by neurological issues, now you almost never see a jaguar carpet, or a motley boa with neurological issues. i think the enigma leopard is going to be more like the spider ball python, you dont see as many with the issues they have, but you do still see them(they have the exact same issues as enigmas, head wobbles, star gazing, bad aim, ect). the spider balls have not been completely figured out, and i dont think that issue will ever be completely solved, like it has been in the jaguars and the motley boas...i think if people continue to outcross and work with enigmas, they will decrease in thier issues. BUT, with the white and yellow gene doing alot of the same things as the enigma, as far as pattern and color enhancements, but without the neurological issues, the white and yellow gene may take over that role, and alot of people will probably quit working with the enigma. i plan on combining my enigma and white and yellow stuff, but more to see what they will look like, not to harness the neuro affects, as i dont think this is going to fix anything. i think outcrossing is the only way to lessen the affects. i also have noticed with my babies(be it a very small number to this point) that once they were used to the commotion, they completely stopped spinning. i do not believe any of them will have issues later in life. as the people i have talked to that have alot of EXPERIENCE with the enigmas, have not seen a young one with no issues, develop them later on in life....they usually show signs, and continue to show signs as they grow...not just all of the sudden start having problems. allthough, a severely stressed animal, can indeed start to have issues, but the stress would have to be pretty severe, not just from moving cages or something of that matter....just my findings from research and talking with alot of highly experienced breeders. this is just my opinion on how this works, by no means am i an expert or an 'enigma expert'

...not just craig either, others have had some great success, i just got caught up in typing and did not mention others...sorry

Marcia from golden gate geckos made a pretty good post recently. I'll quote her, just to show a different perspective. She's been a breeder since 1995. Her post was made in response to someone asking about enigma studies.

I think when it comes to engimas, it's good to hear from both sides so people can come to their own conclusions.

the only legitimate 'study' I am aware of is one performed by a
University in Texas, other than that, most of what we know about them is
from breeders who work(ed) with them. Personally, I love the Enigmas,
but we do know that the vestibular problems these geckos sometimes
exhibit are indeed, genetic. This was confirmed by the study. ALL
Enigmas carry the genetics that can result in offspring having mild, moderate, or severe problems.

I have not seen the entire results of this study, but basically there is
a cerebral defect that causes these Enigma geckos to see everything in
motion. This causes them to try to compensate their balance in an
environment that is spinning around them by as simple as a head tilt, to
a moderate level by walking in circles, to an extreme inability to even
stand up straight. Enigmas that do not exhibit these symptoms can
develop them, usually as a result of extreme stress... such as shipping,
breeding, or even bright light. It's very sad, because these geckos are
so beautiful, and are generally very good-natured.

Other reptiles with similar problems are the Spider-Ball Python, and
Jaguar Carpet Python. In these morphs, outcrossing usually negates the
problem. With The Enigma, since it is a type of co-dominant morph,
breeding crosses will either produce an Enigma or not an Enigma. ALL
ENIGMAS CARRY THIS GENETIC DEFECT.

With this said, I feel that it is mandatory for ANY breeder who works
with the Enigma morph to fully disclose this potential issue to
prospective buyers. I am not qualified to pass judgement on anyone who
keeps Enigmas, but I urge anyone who decides to breed them to take a
good look at their responsibility to the reptile community by NOT
knowingly producing geckos with a known genetic defect. It is
heartbreaking as a breeder to have to humanely euthanize such a
beautiful and unique leopard gecko morph that does not have a quality
life as a result of indiscriminate breeding.

I can only speak for myself, but I am phasing-out the propagation of
this morph... not because I don't think they are beautiful and can have
healthy productive lives, but because I feel as a breeder I have an
ethical responsibility to NOT breed any animal that has a known genetic
defect. I will continue to keep the two remaining Enigma geckos in my
collection and even though they do not exhibit these problems, they
certainly would pass the genetic traits on to their offspring.

Thanks for letting me preach...

there is nothing in that post i disagree with, or said any different in my post. i love my enigmas, and as far as right now, i will continue to produce them(although not in large numbers), and will log my findings. and any prospective buyer will be absolutely aware of the possibility, i think anyone who sells them without telling the buyer, is simply a dirtbag...for lack of words i am willing to use on this forum. marsha is a very good and knowledgable breeder, and i highly respect her. i assume as long as there are enigmas, there is going to be a debate on them....our jobs as professional breeders, is to be humane, and to make everyone aware of the possibilities of owning these. i suppose i will always have a few as pets, but once i build my white and yellow collection up a bit, i may or may not continue to breed. i just know that from the three very experienced and respected breeders, i think without a doubt that outcrossing seriously reduces any negative behaviors. i do love the way the enigma trait makes the geckos so docile and inquisitive, and the colors and pattern variations...but i do love my white and yellows too!