Unhealthy Leopard Gecko (I think)

I'm really hoping someone can give me advice here. This is my first gecko, so I'm working with info that I found on the internet with no experience. I know I wrote a lot but I wasn't sure what info was relevant and what wasn't. PLEASE read all of it and help me out!

I got a free gecko off of craigslist, she was free because she had a stuck shed and the owner didn't have the time to deal with it. I did some googling and figured if I gave her a good moist hide and maybe some soaks she would shed the skin and be normal after that. I picked her up about weeks ago, she was in a 20gal with a reptisand substrate and a moist hide with sphagnum moss. I took out the reptisand, cleaned the tank, and put down papertowels instead, and set her up with a moist hide on the warm side and a regular hide on the cool side, and a bowl of water and another bowl withe calcium supplement. Warm side is 90 degrees, cool side is 73. When I first got her she was whitish all over with shed skin and wouldn't (or couldn't?) open her eyes, they were squinted closed all the time. I sprayed her at least twice a day for the first few days with a shedding aid that I had, and I offered her crickets but she was not at all interested, I figured because of her stuck shed. She opened her eyes after getting sprayed but only for a couple minutes. Within the first few days she had dropped a little skin on her back, but then the progress stopped and I started soaks daily in lukewarm water. With every soak there was a little more progress, but it was slow going at first and then it stopped.

Since I had not seen any effort on her part to help with the shedding (she was not rubbing up against things or eating it like I read that they are supposed to do) I decided to give her some more help. I continued giving soaks but would also very gently massage the places where skin was stuck, and gently pull it back if I could tell that it was loose. I know this is not recommended, but it would never have come off if I hadn't. I got the skin off from her mid-back to the tip of her tail and her head this way. The skin underneath looks great, so I am sure that the skin was ready to come off and just needed some help. She is now completely done with shedding except for a little on the ends of the toes that I am still working on. I only got the head piece off 2 days ago, and I figured her eyes would get better and she would be more interested in eating after that. It had looked like the shed skin was rubbing her eye and that's why she was keeping it closed.

CURRENT ISSUES:
After I got the head skin off she opened them more often, but still keeps them closed most of the time. I can't see anything wrong with them, no apparent swelling and when she opens them they are amazingly clear and bright so I just don't know what the problem is. It really does not look like an infection. She is also still lethargic, which she has been the whole time, but I figured she should be feeling better after getting all that skin off. There is still no interest in eating, she doesn't move around much at all, and keeps her eyes squinted. What could the problem be, and what should I do. I imagine that the whole ordeal has been pretty stressful for her so I think she might gradually start feeling better, but I didn't want to wait too long to ask about it. The majority of her shed was stuck for nearly 2 weeks after I got her, and I don't know how long before, so I wouldn't be surprised if she feels pretty crappy. Her tail is still plump so she's not in imminent danger of starvation but it does bother me that she won't eat.

Hello and it sounds like you are gonna be a great gecko keeper. There are many things that can affect her eating such as just being in a new home, eating her shed(if she did), many don't eat around shedding time....So, if you would mind filling out the health questionnaire at http://www.leopardgeckoforum.com/t134-please-read-and-fill-out-with-your-health-questions

it should help us found out how best to help you.

Thanks

could you also post a picture of her as it might help us with helping you

Oh sorry I didn't know about the questionnaire, most of my answers are going to be based on what the previous owner told me, and he didn't tell me much. Here goes:

Care Questionaire:

About your leo:
- Sex - Female
- Age & Weight - A few years old (3 or 4?), just weighed her and she's 32g
- Morph (if you know) - been ID'd as SHTCT online, don't know for sure
- How long have you owned your leo - a couple weeks
- Where was he/she obtained (Pet store, breeder, wild caught, etc.) - craigslist
- Is your leo wild caught or captive bred - captive bred probably, don't know for sure

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo - daily for the last couple weeks, been helping with shed
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how - been the same since I got her, doesn't seems to be acting like a normal gecko
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. - recent shedding and eye problems, I don't know about any before that
B) Fecals
- Describe-Do they look any different than normal - I don't know what they normally look like
- When was the last time he/she went - she has only had 1 small poo since I got her, it was about a week ago
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem/issue you are experiencing and how long it has been going on
Recently had a very difficult shed, that is just finishing up, eyes are closed most of the time and she seems lethargic. Not moving around much and not interested in food. She has had all problems since I got her 2 weeks ago, I don't know how long before that.

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size - about 2 feet by 1 foot
- Type (ex. glass tank, screen enclosure, tub kept) was 20 gal long with screen lid before I got her, now in a tub about half the size (I read that they should be in smaller spaces when they don't feel well?)
- Type of substrate (sand, vinyl tiles, ceramic/stone tiles, etc.) - was reptisand before I got her, paper towels now
- Hides (how many, location and type (hothide, humid hide, regular hide etc.) 1 humid hide on the hot side, 1 regular hide on the cool side
B) Heating
- What is your main heat source (heat bulbs, under tank heat mat etc) - Fluker's UTH, 11 inches by 7 inches I think
- What are your cage temps (hot side and cool side) - hot side 90 cool side 73
- Method of regulating your heat source (thermostat, rheostat, light dimmer etc.) rheostat
- What are you using to measure your temps (probe thermometer, infrared lazer tempo gun, stick on temp gauge, etc) dial thermometer from Petsmart
- Do you have any lights (describe type (red,blue, basking etc) and cycle duration) - no lights, should I have some?
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females) - she's alone
- Describe health, or previous problems of cage mates - N/A

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What are you feeding - Crickets/mealworms
- How often are you feeding your gecko and how much per feeding? - I don't know how much she usually eats, she hasn't eaten since I got her. I've been trying to feed her about every other day
- How are you feeding (hand fed, tongs/tweezers, left in dish, ect) - Tried all of the above
B) Supplements
- What calcium suppliment are you using (please include brand) - I have ground up cuttlebone in a bowl in her cage now, I use it for my turtles
- What multi vitamin are you using (please include brand) - Fluker's Repta-Vitamin with Beta Carotene
-How are you implimenting your suppliment program (how often do you dust with each suppliment, do you leave calcium in the tank 24/7 etc.) leaving the ground up cuttlebone in there now for calcium 24/7, planning on dusting once a week if she'll ever eat
- What are you gutloading your feeder insects with - Fluker's Calcium Fortified Cricket Quencher with the Fluker Repta-Vitamin sprinkled on. I also dropped some peas and green beans in there for them to munch on

**I've heard a ton of conflicting info about supplementation. I am confused about whether to leave vitamins and calcium available 24/7, or just the calcium. I'm also confused about whether supplements should or shouldn't have D3. Clarification on these points would be appreciated.**

Picture - when there was still some skin stuck on her back feet, that's off now except some on the tips of her toes that's really stuck

I was just reading that leopard geckos are supposed to weight 60-90 grams???? She is not even close to that. She doesn't look that skinny to me though, is she that underweight or just a runt?

No, 60-90 grams is the genetic giant species. My two current leo's are 32 and 39 grams, and are doing great.

You have a very nice murphy's patternless!

Ok whew that freaked me out for a little while. I'm glad to hear her weight is pretty normal. After doing some more reading I'm going to bump the temp up a few degrees

I actually thought she looked like a Murphy's patternless but her tail is really speckly, I thought they were supposed to have plain white tails.

Kodieh wrote:No, 60-90 grams is the genetic giant species. My two current leo's are 32 and 39 grams, and are doing great.

You have a very nice murphy's patternless!

Genetic giants are expected to be 90 - 120g actually. 60 - 90g is the perfect weight for an Adult leopard gecko.

Well does she look too skinny or is she just small?

Jordan's right, but yours looks to still be sub-adult so the weight is still correct.

Did she eat her shed? I'm going to assume no since you had to take off most of it. I think you should keep an eye on her and still try to offer her food. My odie isn't eating right now either but it isn't cause for alarm as long as she looks healthy. Odie is also currently having shed in the eyes problem. If you dont have drops, you could still try to drop sterile water in her eyes and and try to flush them and alleviate some of the irritation . I'm not an expert, I'm a beginner myself but if she was in sand before, even the reptisand that they claim is digestible , she could be impacted. But I couldnt give a real confirmation on that. Maybe someone on here could. She looks well enough. Very pretty also

No, she didn't eat any of her shed as far as I could tell.

I have been dripping some water in her eyes during her baths because it seems to help her open them, but I've been wondering if people eye drops work for geckos (like Visine?). Do you think she has the same problem as Odie?

I really appreciate the help I've gotten so far.

It sounds like she does have the same problem. His eyes are clear and bright and open occationally, but when I had to open them all the way for drops I could see little pieces of skin in there.

You probably could use the same thing we humans use like visine, but I would dilute it with a little water just to be safe. My dad's an optometrist so he prescribed an eye wash/irrigating solution and a refill of the antibacterial the petstore gave me because they thought he had an eye infection. I've been alternateing between the two and now Odie's eyes are open more often then not.

your best bet is to get her eye's checked by a vet just to make sure there's no stuck skin or damage to her eyes and then they would be able to give any needed medicines for her

I agree with sam. Odie's isn't bad and he's been to the vet once already. If it isn't helped he/she can go blind.

You can not use visine eye drops on a leo. You should only use drops prescribed by a vet specialist or plain saline solution or purafied water to flush the eyes. It sounds to me like there could be some stuck shed in there.

Also I think using a digital probe thermometer will give you a much more accurate temp reading is impotant here. Sick leos usually need warmer temps, I'd suggest 93-96*. If temps are too low that will slow down everything from eating to metabolism. You migh also want to change his only hot hide from moist to dry. Too much moisture and low temps are the perfect breeding ground for upper respratory infecton. If your tub is hallf the size of a 20 long you should have plenty of room for 3 gladware hides and your dishes.

As far as the supplimens go, there's a ton of threads on the forum explaining how to porperly use them. There's a search feature that if you put "suppliment or supplimeting" you should get all the info you need.

Hopefully some of that helps... good luck

I emailed a local vet with pretty much the same text I have in the first post, he is supposed to know a lot about reptiles and he keeps some leopards, this is what he said:

I commend you for trying with this leopard, but she have more problems than you know.
The pictures show a pretty skinny leopard. The other skin issues could be that she does have an infection in both eyes (and needs tobromycin drops)and doesn't want to hunt (cannot see well), or could be secondary to a worse problem like cryptosporidum (wasting disease of geckos).
Other than seeing a vet, I might recommend decreasing the temp in the cage. Ambient mid 70's ambient low 80's/ high 70's (too hot in the cage). Also trying force feeding crushed insects with Ensure (not chocolate). This will at least get some calories in right now.

Good luck,
(Vet's name)

Any opinions?

Decreasing tempedrature will. Slow down the metabolism which will slow down activity and desire to eat. If it is crypto then sadly recovery is next to impossible, and the infections can be treated/managed. You need to attack 1 thing at a time to see just what it is or get to a qualified intelligent vet. I can't imagine someone so experienced with herps would suggest lower heat. Did he give a reason why?

No that is the entire text of the email. Maybe he thought I meant I kept the whole enclosure at 95? The lower temperature advice did sound odd to me, it definitely clashes with what I have heard from several other sources.

He's talking about ambient (air) temperature... I wonder what he would suggest for surface temperature for a leo in this condition. That's a bit of anothr flag... ambient temps don't really mean diddly when it comes to leos.

You could try contacting the vet I use for my ferrets if you like. He is apart of an exotic animal clinic and he has certifications specifically for reptiles and amphibians. He even teaches/lectures vet students about herpetology. He's also written several books, articles, and held conferences...

Dr. Kevin Wright

http://www.azeah.com/About.asp?id=73

The email on the page and his contact email is the same...but it's worth a shot. He's worked wonders with my pets.

If truly not mistaken, maybe he does intend to slow down the metabolic rate of the leo in an attempt to not make it use as much energy till it begins taking in food to create energy.

On the other hand, finding any other herp vet who might specialize in Leopard Geckos and emailing them for a second opinion with "Heres what I asked, heres what my local herp vet said, can I get a second opinion?" and see what you get. If the second opinion is in concurrence with your local, then I'd trust the advice.

I would even be willing to continue talking with the same herp vet asking just for a greater explanation of why he thinks lower temps are going to help when it impacts metabolism/feeding/etc... if he has a good explanation taht great maybe he does have a good working knowledge BUT in the meanwhile it certainly doesn't hurt to get a second opinion like Kodie suggested.
Also sometimes writing to a university or college that is known for doing good herp studies might garner somevaluable insight... but nothing will replace an actual vet putting his/her hands on your animal because until then it really is all just speculation of what it "could" be.

She doesn't look to be 3/4 years old slightly younger about a year old. She is slightly underweight as you can slightly see the backbone and her tail should be nice and fatty.

Nice/good job of getting all the shed skin off her. If left on this would lead to infections and with her not eating or opening eyes, would of probably ended up with the animal dying. So good job you took her home and helped her out

Have you had stool samples done on her. This will let you know weather there is a problem with her (being so skinny) or just she hasn't got the right amount of food that she needed.

As with not opening her eyes. If she has had them shut for a long period of time, she will be slightly senative to light.So opening them slightly for a period of time will allow her to get use to the lighting. She should build this time up naturally and be able to keep them opening within daytime if she feels she wants to.

Keep a eye on her next few sheds, as these could be a little tricky for her, she may be able to shed on her own (with a added moss box - which you have) but watch closely, as she may well need your help again. Well done on switching the substrate, keep a close eye on her stools. Make sure there is no sand coming through within the stools, which could indicate there might be a impaction issue.

With Crypto like Kel has said, there is very little recovering off this.And a very nasty disease/parasite to have. If this is the case the best thing to do is have the animal put to sleep and than dispose of everything that had been in contact with the other leo, this will help not re-infect anything in your care, or anything you are thinking of getting within the future. This parasite can be passed onto humans, so make sure you wash your hands before and after handling or touching the equipment with this leo (or should any ways, but 100% now)

But before you take measures like these. Have some stool samples done by your vet or PALS and they will be able to tell you if there is a parasite present and than you can treat it. It might be something simple like worms -which turns a leo off their food and in turn loses weight.

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