Superworms

Hey, I got my superworms for my gecko today. I've read/heard a lot of horror stories about these. What's best, feed them normally, or cut the heads off? Also, how many should I feed in one go

It is an urban legend, myth, lie, etc. that supers can eat through your geckos stomach. It is perfectly fine to have them in your gecko's rotation of insects.

Generally, mine take down about three supers and sometimes four.

Ahh ok cheers. I'll try her on a few tonight.

I believe I already answered this for you in another thread. If you're worried then you can pinch the end of their head to crush their mandibles so they can't bite your leo, but you don't want to crush it to death. Some people swear they've had bad experiences feeding supers but it hadn't been determined by a vet, it was an educated assumption, but they can bite just like most bugs can. I've been feeding them for years with no problems, use to crush the head when eros was young but now when I drop them in he watches them for a second to determine where the head is and strikes the head first crushing it (you can hear the crunch crunch as he bites down.)

Kermit, yes in another thread you did say you crushed their heads. I just wanted to see what's other do/believe. The shop I got him from said she was only 6 months so never feed supers. After layings eggs I thought she was older. Sorry if I offended you Kermit, just wanted to see what others did roo

Nope no offense taken.just couldn't recall if it was your thread our a different one I posted it in.

Feel free to feed superworms however you like, there will be those that say they are 100% safe but if you do enough research online, there have been people that have reported death from superworms. Yes some even have been checked out by vets, including bites that got infected inside gecko's mouth which can be equally upsetting and costly to treat.

I've spoken to Marcia from Golden Gate Geckos who's a very reputable breeder since 1995, she said she knows 2 people who's geckos have died due to superworms. It's an issue that's mostly tabooed because a lot of people feeding superworms don't want to really change a thing. It's like telling someone smoking & drinking is bad, but people still do it, and they'll do it until the day something bad happens to them. Until then, you can show them graphic images but they still won't believe you.

By the way, Marcia did say when those people posted on the forum about it, nobody believed them. She knew it was true, but you can't really fight the greater amount of people who will tell you otherwise. Most people that do post about it never documented the events the way I did. But hey, even though I did (one of the few that did document it), you still have people that doubt a very well documented case.

Just remember, this is something you either crush their mandibles or you don't. Once a gecko takes that super down, there's absolutely nothing you can do. So you get to play God, they are your pets. Yes, the greater number of people never had issues with superworms. Yes breeders with thousands of geckos have claimed they never had any issues with superworms. Private owners have fed superworms for years and years and never had any issues. But however rare the occurrence may be, I can guarantee you that if it does happen to your dear pet, you will hate yourself for a long time for not having done something to protect it. I speak from experience as someone who was in the camp of those that never thought superworms could be dangerous...until it happened to me, twice in 2 weeks. I have one gecko who still will not eat to this day since she violently regurgitated that superworm.

Let me finish off my post by bringing up an interesting fact, something people are more familiar with. People were so quick at jumping on warning others about the potential dangers of feeding jamaican field crickets even though nothing bad has ever happened to them, neither have any of their geckos die due to them. People are warned that jamaican field crickets have large mandibles (so do superworms), they are aggressive (so are superworms), and their bites hurt (so do superworms bites, try it if you don't believe me). Marcia had a negative experience with them, she's had geckos that stopped eating due to those crickets, and everybody embraced the warning.

So why the different treatment besides the obvious fact that those supporting the jamaican cricket warning already hated crickets before, and are feeding superworms? I've fed crickets for years to various animals I owned, never had a problem. But I took the advice of those who have had bad experiences without doubting them. They are real life experiences, it's not something you can learn from books and PhD education. I wouldn't take someone's bad experience from them, and I heed to the warnings about crickets equally as I do with other warnings.

Anyways, good luck whatever you choose to do. Chances are, nothing bad will happen to you. But just understand bad things have happened to others who feed superworms or crickets.

Thanks Mardy. I see your point. I'll find out hat I do hen she's due her feed tomorrow.

What's crazy is nobody's even saying to not feed superworms, I know I"m not. We're talking pinching their mandibles so they can't bite your gecko on their way in or cause injuries internally. Crushing their mandibles is such an easy task, I don't know why there's even a need for debate.

And yes Marcia from GGG told me she pinches the mandibles as well every time she feeds superworms. This is the same lady everybody listened to with regards to jamaican field crickets, so if you don't want to listen to me, listen to her. She's the one with a good long term reputation in the scene.

Just to add to what Mardy's saying...

I've been bitten by enough superworms to know it can hurt alot. So can anyone really doubt the possibility of one biting a geckos mouth? I had been bit around a dozen times by super worms, til the 13th time, my finger actually got infected. Again I ask, can anyone doubt that is a possibility with our leos? I wouldn't stray from super worms, but I would use with caution, and make sure your leo is a fast eater and not one that might allow for a biting. Just my two sense.

Fast eating is supposedlyh what got mardys leos in truble, fast isn't key as much as smart, a leo tat knows how to eat prey cautiously and properly by going for the head first is likely not going to suffer an issue. An owner that crushes mandibles is not likely to suffer an issue, again it comes to smart feeding moreso than what you feed...

Also mardy superworms aren't aggressive like the jamaician field cricket.. it doesn't actively seek out prey such as your leo to attack it. Supers give a defensive response not an aggressive attcack. I also hve read marcias article on the field cricket,its actually posted here on the forum. The arguement was that because of the cricket virus killing off the a. Domesticus it was being replaced, unbeknownst to herpers, with the more aggressive jamaician field cricket and peple were wondering why their leos were gettng hurt. It was an unethical thing cricket suppliers did with out informing their customers to the porential harm that could happen by replacing one cricket with another. People have known all along that supers could give a damaging bite, again ANY BUG can bite your leo, any cricket can bite your leo, ANY live feeder can hurt or hold the potential to harm the animal eating it, wild or captive animal. Its a crap shoot anytime we feed our critters live prey, its not. "playing god" that's an alarmist statement, its the risk we ALL take when feeding live prey.

By the way have you ever put a superworm in a dish of water? They drown in like 2 seconds. I found this out by quickly rinsing a super under the tap to get dust off, that bug wasn't eaten and I was putting it back in the keeper. It was dead before you could say boo. Pretty tough bugs there aye... (yes that's sarcasm)

Theres a difference between fast, and two fast. I do not know Mardy's story, though I would guess too fast would be the issue.

In my experiences, leos who have eaten faster have also been the smarter eaters and overall smarter leos. But again, not too fast. Maybe swift would be a better word for it.

Kermit wrote:People have known all along that supers could give a damaging bite,

Actually the whole argument was some feel superworms are 100% safe, I can quote the "100% safe" and give you so many links and posts even on this forum where that's cited. The whole argument is that there are those that don't believe in other people's bad experiences, brush them off, and go on to tell others that superworms can not cause injuries to your geckos and that everything's a myth, people are liars, and superworms are "100% safe".

If people truly knew all along supers could give a damaging bite, then there would not have been this discussion. There definitely would not be people out there saying superworms are 100% safe and that all reports of injuries are myth and lies.

I have no agenda, I even documented this because I was on the bandwagon of "superworms are 100% safe" prior to this happening to two of my geckos. I don't sell feeders, nor do I tell people to not feed superworms. My long post in another thread only told a story of what happened to me, a real life experience that also happened to others. Except most others got shot down because they didn't document it.

So if you are willing to settle for the fact that superworms could potentially cause injuries to a gecko, then we 100% agree and no debate or arguments are needed.

Kermit wrote:
By the way have you ever put a superworm in a dish of water? They drown in like 2 seconds. I found this out by quickly rinsing a super under the tap to get dust off, that bug wasn't eaten and I was putting it back in the keeper. It was dead before you could say boo. Pretty tough bugs there aye... (yes that's sarcasm)

They breath through spiracles, and spiracles are along the body. So if the spiracles are not filled with water, they won't die. Running a superworm under tap water or drowning it in a dish of water do not simulate the environment they encounter once they enter a gecko's mouth. Plus I'm not sure why everybody assume a superworm would automatically enter a gecko's stomach once it enters their mouth. We've all seen how a superworm cling onto things, like newspaper when we first get a shipment of them from a supplier, or even our fingers. There have been reported cases of severe damages inside gecko's throats caused by superworms.

Now speaking specifically of a gecko's stomach, I found a post from a reputable poster on another forum:

Hypothetically a worm gets swallowed, the head is intact, the worm won't die from the injury of being chewed once or twice. It is in the stomach of the gecko, a corrosive environment but the digestive acids of reptiles are relatively weak (their digestion is more enzyme action). The superworm has a low oxygen requirement but it does have one. The rate at which they can chew and the distance and tissues they'd need to get through are where the problem lies. They can bite, they have mandibles... it's a matter of being able to bite through the things they'd have to chew through before being killed by the corrosive, relatively anaerobic environment.

So I think there shouldn't be debate on the potential risks of superworms causing injuries inside a gecko's throat or stomach. There's potential risk, but the risk is small. My argument is simply the risk is there, and you could minimize that risk by pinching their mandibles before feeding them to your geckos. It's in my opinion that people are wrong in saying superworms are 100% safe and that all issues caused by them are myth and lies.

How do u crush the mandibles? I had a lil go but they move so fast! I gave 2 to my Leo and she eat them both head first. There's was also a loud enough for me to hear crunch. I'm gathering she dealt with them ok.....this time.

Head crunches are good

As for how to crush their mandibles, hold the super just below their head so they can't squirm out of your fingers. Then take your feeding tongs (if you use one) and simply squeeze the edge of their mouth. You are looking for the same crunching sound. If you pinch too much, you'll kill them.

If you want to see their mandibles in action, while holding them, take your other finger and press it against their mouth. You'll feel what it's like when they bite, and you can see how they open up their mandibles.

Honestly if you don't want to worry about pinching the mandibles then don't. I get criticized enough for saying anything I'm not gonna bother worrying about what other people say/do anymore. You've heard my stories and my side of the explanation. Chances are you won't have any issues, as majority don't have any issues.

Haha I'm not willingly putting my finger in there mouths to get bit. I trust others I've read when they say it hurts. I'll give it a go with the crushing mind.

Mardy you're not being criticized, you're being debated, there's a difference usualy the most useful info comes from debate. The arguement u was referring to was the jamaician cricket debate not the supers, also that quote about leo stomach acids sounds like the onderful insight of dear seamus... a walking ecyclopedia that man is. I do agree that the acids are weak but on the flip side they are a liquid and as soon as those spiricles are full of acid the super's done for. No one was saying you were a liar or wrng and I have stated many times that any time you feed live prey there is a risk of potential danger... were on the same side here, but your playing god comment was a bit over the top. I agree that when leos are less than 6-7 months old supers should be disarmed, but on the flip side people should keep in mind that this is like the 1 in 1000 rule where 1 gets hurt, 1000 are fne. I stopped crushing eros' supers when he was 8 months old after I saw he was catching 98% of the supers by the head.

Your imput is def. Appreciated and valued, its just when it comes with an added dose of the dramatic that it becoms counterproductive is all.