Why does EVERYONE INSIST on breeding Leos???

Now this isn't directed to anyone in particular on the forum BUT if you find yourself thinking "maybe she's talking about me" maybe you should reconsider your breeding intentions....

It has been brought up several times on the forum about not corssing the albino strains and the ETHICS (yes there is a code of ethics people) for breeding leos. Well it seems greatly disregarded because I see it time and again, people in the hobby who just picked up a leo at whatever petshop of choice or from craigs list, NOT from a breeder, with unknown genetics and have the intentions of putting it into a breeding program... well DUH people what are you thinking? Not only do the majority of these people barely have the intellectual capacity for keep their current animal in the proper environment (which is known by the multipul posts about how to fix up this part of my tank or that part or what have you) but they haven't even owned a leo for barely a week before getting more leos to make wonderful babies with.... WRONG...

By breeding leos with unknown genetics people don't you see that it makes you no different from the back yard breeder that just throws 2 whatever dogs together or puppy mills that indiscriminantly breed genetically inferior or even genetically damaged dogs with out regard to the parents or the offspring they will produce??? The point of being in a hobby or a herp enthusiast is to BETTER the breed as a whole... not to add more genetic mutts to the already flooded pet market for the next ignoramous coming along to breed to his pretty leo and make yet more wonderful mutt babies. This is why they're called PET shops and not breeder shops. We need to get back to basics here people... we needs to produce leos that have NO hets, are pure in their morph and where the entire morphology is actually KNOWN... omg is that actually possible??? YES it really is!

When people STOP breeding for selfish reasons, thinking they might make a profit (which you never will, you ALWAYS spend more than you make in ANY breeding venture), COMPLETELY educate yourself in morpholgy (has anyone else noticed that the help me morph my leo sections is literally THEE busiest section next to the proper housing one??? What's wrong with THAT picture?), you KNOW how to make the perfect set up, how to properly suppliment, how to properly breed with out risking the male OR the female, what weights they should be, how old they should be, and know EXACTLY what their leo's morph and hets, let alone when breeding season begins, ends and how to incubate properly (that's another mess all in itself...) then you shouldn't even consider breeding... YOU'RE NOT READY... not even close.

If you think you can buy 2 leos from your local pet shop for $30 bucks and start a REPUTABLE respectable ETHICAL breeding business you're WRONG! The only leos that should be bred are those that come from long term reputable breeders with an established history of more than 3 years, who know their stock inside and out and can give you ever last detail on them. THAT leo isn't gonna cost you any less than $100.00. When you consider that most leos that end up in petshops are MASS produced on leo farms with out care to crosses or moprhology it does the leo world no favors to reproduce these animals. Or if you consider that maybe they are from reputable breeders that do know their history and have sent the proper morphology along to the shop, all the leos are thrown into a group tank and you don't know that you're getting the right one because the majority of people that work in these shops are complete MORONS! Reputable breeders that send certain hatchlings off to petshops, that don't make that "holdback" grade usually aren't worth breeding anyway. If the original breeeder didn't see something spectacular in that animal to hold it back for themselves or to sell it on their site as a potential breeder then it is ending up in a petshop for a reason... it's a breeding project REJECT. The breeder didn't want to perpetuate that animal so why should you?

I've worked in the dog industry for 17 years... I have been a HUGE proponent for anti-breeding laws in dogs for some time. Granted my time into leos is less than a third of what it is with dogs but I KNOW I would NEVER want to breed, I could study for another 17 years and STILL wouldn't feel comfortable breeding. The morphology alone is staggering, if you can't even identify your own leo, if you don't know what the outward traits mean and how to interpret what different morphs are then how could you even consider it. I professionally breed show rabbits, I have many Best of group winners, many best of variety winners and a couple best of breed winners after working with my lines for 4 years... best of breed is usually unheard of until you're at least 5 years into the rabbit fancy BUT we've done it, we've achieved that perfect rabbit to the ARBA standard after much work, much failure, MANY culls, a lot of petshop babies and hard work. Understanding the genetics involved, well heck you might as well sign up for a course at your local university or spend at least 5 hours a day reading up on it and you STILL wouldn't know all there is to know. Not every animal is meant to be bred... some are ACTUALLY only good for pets.

Just because an animal has the ABILITY to breed doesn't mean it should. That is where it falls onto the RESPONSIBLE owner to make that call. After all they are only animals that work on primary basic instinct and they don't know they're genetically inferior and will do what animals do when the situation arises. Kathystew put together an awesome thread some time back on questions to ask yourself when considering breeding. it is actually a sticky in the breeding section... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] how many of you future potential hopeful breeders have actually taken the time to read it let alone absorb the gravity of becoming a breeder?

Do you have the heart to kill a hatchling? To literally if needed crush it's head with a brick if it is suffering? NO? Then DON'T BREED! It's not all sunshine and roses.. there is an ugly side to breeding... whenever you elect to create life you sure as hell better be prepared to take life as well... and if you don't have the stomach, or knowledge to properly do that then again... DON'T BREED! Believe me it's no fun putting a bullet into one of my rabbits if it gets hurt delivering a litter, or develops wry neck from gestational calcium depletion, or whatever one of a hundred things that could go wrong with first time mothers... but I'm ready and have done it and will do it again if the need arises. It is the EDUCATED choice I made when I got into the hobby with full knowledge that it could someday have to be done. Do you know how hard it is to take that 3 week old baby rabbit that you have nurtured and raised that just broke it's leg in the wire or that is a peanut or some other genetic defect that doesn't show up until it's all cute and fuzzy and have to slam it to the ground to humanely kill it because it's too small for a bullet... it's not easy and I'm sure it makes me sound like a cold hearted bitch even saying it BUT it is a FACT OF THE HOBBY we choose. You can't run off to the vet for every animal that needs euthanized, or that gets hurt or you'd be spending thousands in vet bills alone. IT IS A CRUEL unforgiving hobby that we as exducated ethical breeders choose... BUT when you do win that best of breed or (hopefully someday) best of show it makes all your hard work, blood, sweat and tears worth it.

Who knows maybe someday they'll have leo shows where you compete for best of morph and the breeder will actually be held to a higher standard of perfection aside of what their own eye can see but until that day USE YOUR HEADS people... these are LIVES you're bringing into this world that are ruining the hard work and passion of the many hard working ethical responsible breeders that have come before you... y'all are disgusting them with your quickness to breed whatever animal that comes along just for the "experience" or potential income you could possibly make off it. I could go on and on and on along this rant but I won't... I'll leave it at that... for those of you that hate me for it... so be it... for those of you that reconsider your future breeding ventures because of it... well good for you... there might be hope for you after all... and for those of you that can't even define polygenic, Genotype, or Homozygous... don't get another animal let alone breed it... if you think sand is a suitable substrait, that an under tank heater IS NOT mandatory accessory for your leo, and that using a high wattage UV light to creat a day/night cycle is ok or that leos are nctournal... please PLEASE DON'T ever breed an animal.

That's it... rant over oh for the other members of the staff that are going to read this and be like "I can't believe she just said that!" Don't delete this post please. Only Jordan has that right. Thanks

Nice post, gives a lot to think about. Its the pet care business, like you said, its not always roses. Its just like breeding any other animal. You just cant push a mutt off as a animal with a pedigree it doesn't have. Might as well be scamming people..

But i don't think you should really be discouraging people from this. Just give them the info they want and need. That is the whole point of this forum, yea? At least for me, when i started my first breeding project with chameleons i was just interested in the life cycle and hatch ling care more than anything else. Leopard geckos are just way more accessible and popular so your getting a lot of people asking questions.

Very, very well spoken Kel. I actually think this should be made into a sticky.

This really isn't meant to discourage people, per se. It's in the rant section so it's something that Kel really wants to express, which I agree with wholeheartedly.

If you don't know basic terms, buy from a pet shop, and don't have the gall to cull a deformed hatchling, then don't breed. Really, these are guidelines if you want to look at it, but encompassing the harsh reality of breeding. Breeding isn't all candy and rainbows - it requires knowledge, quality leopard geckos from a breeder (not Petco or Petsmart), and a heart. The best way to do this is read and gain knowledge from other breeders and ask questions before jumping the gun and buying a pair from a pet shop.

I believe that this will serve not only as a rant, but a piece of information for new leopard gecko owners who think that breeding is the next step in their ownership plans.

I agree, I will be picking up a second Craigslist rescue on Monday, coupled with my previous rescue Precious, these two will never be part of any breeding plans. It all really comes down to what you're willing to put your name on, I quite frankly will not put my name on animals I cannot definitively tell the genetics of.

Lol i just saw the section this was in, lol that's awesome..

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from breeding but in the same token I'm not into spoonfeeding novice leo owners every bit of information they need to know about breeding if they aren't willing to put time, energy and effort into doing the research on their own. A breeder who has no ambition to learn is simply breeding for profit which is something I will NEVER support, encourage, or endorse. If you do the research, can identify most of the morphs and the traits, know most of the stuff you need to know about raising hatchlings, incubating, gestation, temps for incubation etc. and just need some fine tune clarity then that's different, that's mentoring... spoonfeeding every little bit of info isn't educating its enabling... enabling someone that obviously has subpar animals to partake in unethical breeding practices and that is immoral and against everything long term breeders like Tremper has tried to establish in 30 years of breeding. Invest good money into good animals and you have a better than average chance of hatching good animals. Spend 15$ on a petshop leo and breed mutts... nope won't encourage, take part of or educate that person 1 bit on anything breedingwise... sorry.

I agree with you
I've never understood why people feel the need to breed every new animal they get... It makes me sick, and sad when all animals become are a breeding device...
You did the right thing posting this
And you didn't sound like a bitch, you were saying what needed to be said.

while i agree with this whole heartedly i did find myself thinking of the same in peopl just because u can breed doesnt mean u should prob just the way i feel with working in a maternity hospital and seeing some of the parents that come through the doors changed ur perspective on any breeding program i can tell u

I agree completely. I have been doing months and months of research (I think close to a year).
I bought my geckos from breeders such as The Urban Gecko and Jolene (on here).
I am also constantly learning from Jolene, who I greatly appreciate SO MUCH.

I think a big part of breeding is planning. I see so many people who don't plan, they just throw two geckos together. They don't get an incubator ready, or a breeding rack, or a place to sell the geckos etc.
Despite advice they don't listen, and breed anyway, and are left with many problems.

I agree also

I have been researching for ages and ages about breeding my lionhead rabbits. I have experience breeding pet rabbits and I have made sure I bought two top quality rabbits from experienced breeders and exhibitors. I'm still researching now haha

I'd never even try and breed my leopard geckos now.. I know i'm not ready for incubating eggs or caring for hatchlings. I'm researching for the future, but I'm not even sure if I will bred them yet. It's a big commitment and takes alot of time and money, and knowledge.

thanks for posting this Kel

That's an interesting point wolfbane... I think that if I worked in a maternity ward I'd be whip smacking a lot of people in the back of the heads... it's odd you need to take a test and have a license to drive a car but any moron can pop out a kid...

Kathryn you have an awesome mentor in Jolene... you couldn't ask for a better person to be helping you thru the mine field of breeding. I think that when you're ready that you'll do great.

Sarah, I know we talk all the time about your rabbitry, it isn't an easy hobby but you're doing great with it. You also have a wonderful mentor if I must say so myself I know that if the day ever comes for you to breed your leos that you will be completely educated and have everything all sorted out. With people like Jordan close by you'll do great if you ever go down that path...

The thing about you guys tho is you ARE putting all the time energy and research into considering all the pitfalls fo breeding, you have great mentors ready to help if needed and you're DOING THE RESEARCH! You are considering EVERYTHING that could potentially go wrong and not just breeding on a whim. THOSE are the building blocks of a responsible ethical breeder

Aww thanks so much Kel and Kathryn!!

Not to discourage you or any of the others. But the irresponsible people wont take the time to learn how to do it right, wont take the time to read this or even think twice about this its like preaching to the choir. But for the ones that want to responsible take the time and learn heck ron tremper or mark bell had to start somewhere. If your going to do it do it right that should be the motto!

Yeah I know that those that are dead set on doing the wrong thing won't read this or even think twice about the wrongs they are doing but hopefully some one that is thinking about breeding might take a second to read this and think twice. Even if it only gets thru to one person that's one less profit breeder out there adding mutts to the mess. I live by that motto... Just like Mike Holmes (he's a builder on the home channel that fixes everyone elses screw ups) do it right the first time and it'll last a lifetime goes for more than just building houses It's like I tell the owner of one of the cocker rescues I work with... you can't save them all Hasselhoff (stupid baywatch reference there ) and you certainly can't fix stupid...

You are right the hopes that some people will read and take to heart something and or think about what they are doing is great. I know all about fixing up other people screw up as a lawn care company owner myself. People will always do something the thing will make thing better if its cheaper and or easier. That's life !

Should def make something like this a sticky under the breeding section. I still think you went a little strong on the "dont breed leos just to breed them" I think it can be a good learning experience even if they are just mutts of a species. But what ever floats ur bubble. The main thing u should get across to people is that its not always sunshine and rainbows, and that starting a breeding program isn't just putting 2 random leos together. Also do research and be prepared for what ever is coming. To be honest the only reason i'm breeding leopard geckos now is just to learn about their genetics in a hands on and practical way and possibly pull out a new trait.

The thing there tho is breeding mutt petshop leos is how would you even know if you're pulling out a new trait if you don't even know what you're working with and if you breed unethically and cross the albino strains with out the intelligence and a plan to try and develop a new trait. Those are the problems with breeding unethically and without nderstanding of morphology.

i agree with kermit to a degree! forums are here to help ppl not to make those mistakes and put all there geckos toghter and see what happend!so to ask what morph they are to make sure not making this mistake i do not see as a problem!(ok im one of them asking because i do not want to do something wrong)if ppl dont care they dont ask and breed anyway ! i breed dragons and i must say when i started over 1 year ago they are awesome ppl otu there they helped me and teached me everythign to secure good healty babies! the dragon ppl are awesome and helpfull you can call any breeder and they will help you without you buying anything me included!

it is a great experience ! i know the down side and the up side ! but so far the down sites for me are so minimal do to prober care ppl with knowleges they help !

great explaniton about albinos:

Tremper Albino (Ta) Locus
•Ta+Ta+ = Wild-type
•Ta+tat = Wild-type, heterozygous for Tremper Albino
•tattat = Tremper Albino
Tremper Albino

The second simple recessive mutation to occur was a beautiful form of albinism. Popularized and brought to market by Ron Tremper, this line is now referred to as the 'Tremper' Albino, to differentiate it from the other types of albinos that have since popped up in the market place. It was the first of the albinos to be produced. Note that the different types (Tremper, Las Vegas, and Bell) have been given different names for a reason - each mutated allele resides at a distinct locus. Thus, they are NOT genetically compatible when bred together. Maintain each line of albino separate and keep good records, or a genetic mess may result!

Some keepers believe the three types of albinos can be separated visually based on overall appearance. This is not accurate! There is much variation in overall appearance of these albinos, based on the underlying naturally occurring variations present in all populations. As a result, a near complete overlap in appearances is present within large samples of albinos, rendering accurate visual separation of the types impossible.

As mentioned above, the overall appearance of any given albino specimen can be affected by a number of factors. Many breeders are carefully selecting for specimens with a given appearance and crossing their albino specimens to selectively bred color variations to create a host of new 'morphs'. New names for such specimens are created almost daily by breeders in an effort to gain a foothold in the marketplace. Most of these name appear and then quickly vanish, but several seem to persist, based on acceptance by the public and common usage.

Las Vegas Albino (Lv) Locus
•Lv+Lv+ = Wild-type
•Lv+lvl = Wild-type, heterozygous for Las Vegas Albino
•lvllvl = Las Vegas Albino
Las Vegas Albino

The second strain of Albino, not genetically compatible with the Tremper or Bell lines. Many folks believe these to be superior to the Tremper line as they tend to remain lighter in color. This is the result of an aggressive marketing campaign by the originator of the strain! Both types are absolutely lovely and when selected for appearance based on the naturally occurring variations which shine through the albinism, the results can be stunning with any of the albino types. Sometimes referred to as the 'Rainwater' Albino, after the originator of the strain.

Bell Albino (Ba) Locus
•Ba+Ba+ = Wild-type
•Ba+bab = Wild-type, heterozygous for Bell Albino
•babbab = Bell Albino
Bell Albino

The third strain of Albino, also proven to be non-compatible with other known strains. Mark Bell, a very respected breeder in the industry, was fortunate to have yet another form of albinism pop up in his collection. Like the other types, it has been proven a simple recessive trait.

As much as your imput is insightful and appreciated this isn't a topic about the albino strains its a topic about people that have no clue what morph their leo is, that haven't obtained them from breeders with known genetics, its about people who go and buy just any 2 leos, usually from a petshop or from craigs list and expect to start breeding them and selling the mutt offspring.

Anyone that gets their leo from a reputable ethical breeder will usually have that breeder available to mentor and help them along the way while they take the time themselves to learm morphology, and everything else involved in breeding but you can't expect to come on a forum and say stuff like morph my leo so I can breed it... that's just wrng and personally I won't do it. If someone was to say I was told my leo is a mack snow het bell, how can I tell if the offspring are bell, then people would say look for the pink baclground in the eye or this marking style or color etc. That's different, that's someone that has put time into understanding morphology but just needed to know something that helps define a morph trait.

i see well than kermit im one of the bad one! because i picked two up on craiglist and ask! i got told what they are but i didnt belive it so i ask ! i passed on two others! a friend gave us 2 ! two got dropped off !

sorry i made you upset if i have any questions about morphs i m gonna wait till my friend is back !

well the once we breed came from a breeder and we know what we got and what we get !

No you didn't make me mad at all hon... I just didn't want this turning into another crossing the albino threads and take the point off topic. Point is if a person can't even id their own leo then how can they ever be expeced to be able to properly id the hatchlings? What are they going to tell buyers? That's where ethics, education and a proper breeding pair bought from a reputable breeder with known genetics pays off. Again the point of ANY BREEDING program should be the BETTERMENT of the breed not flooding the market with mutts just for the experience of it. If you could sterilize pet quality leos the way you can dogs or rabbits then it wouldn't be such a big deal but unfortunately that's unrealistic.

oh i understand that !! when we started i was like OMG how you know what you get! thats why the once we breed come from a breeder! its the same with dragons you can say its a trans or hypo or sandfire and ppl belive pay a sick amout of money and than they get ripped off! this is not right!

well i have 2 geckos i dont know what they are i would like to breed them but only if i know what i have!

plus if you do not know what you doing you can hurt the mothers pretty bad and risk your animals live!

Kira wrote:well i have 2 geckos i dont know what they are i would like to breed them but only if i know what i have!

Thing is, you shouldn't breed gecko's even after they have been "morphed Id'd", because its only possible to tell the outwards traits. The real danger and problem of creating mutts lies mostly within the hets which can't be seen from the outside, which is why EVEN if its been Identified gecko's from pet shops/craigslist/anywhere which doesn't provide full genetics should not be bred. Because they can always be hiding genetics as hets, for instance one could be het bell and the other could be het tremper, you wouldn't know, and then you've gone and mixed albino's.

Sorry, Just because a gecko has been Morph ID'd on a forum doesn't make it ready for a breeding program.

People wanting to breed should only breed breedable gecko's, AKA pay the money for gecko's which haven't got messed up or hidden genetics and the correct partner can easily be determined.

Rescues, not only Craigslist pick ups but any rescued animal from any bad or otherwise not good situation, carry an automatic endearing term: Pet Quality. These animals should be kept as PETS and shouldn't be bred, not only for the genetic problems listed above but for the life they haven't had being properly cared for.

They go from a bad situation, not properly housed or otherwise "neglected" and then put into a situation to breed? I just don't see that as fair.